Players who shove flush draws on the flop

4 nl
folds to BTN Villain, flats the blind (4.67 stack)
Villian1 small blind, flats (1.30 stack)
hero in the big blind (1.70) , Jack 10 clubs, raise since nobody has, to 12cent

both villains call 8cent extra (thinking it was too a small raise)

flop comes

10h,4s,7s

villain1 sb checks.

hero raises to 2/3 pot (top pair top kicker)

BTN villain -folds
Villain1 sb- shoves
Hero -calls

Villain1 shows K2 of spades.
Turn is Jack of spades
river is a dud.

My question is, how would you (better people at poker) play this?. (highlighted for wvhillbilly lol )
I put villain1 on a flush draw.
Called hoping he missed.

Won a couple of hands after this and busted him, his ace 10 v my jj. so I got my money back and then some. (shovers dont always hit) So all a learning experience.

Constructive criticism more than welcome

cheers!
Playtheman.

What's the question?

WVHillbilly said:

What's the question?

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says it, how would you play this?

Just call pre flop, it's a pretty drawing hand. No high card value.

I'd have $4 at the start of the hand.

How the fark is JT a TPTK? Top kicker is Ace or King (only for a pair of Aces).

I would just flat call the shove if I knew he had a flush draw. It all depends on how the player is profiled and what you have observed in the past.

LD1977 said:

How the fark is JT a TPTK? Top kicker is Ace or King (only for a pair of Aces).

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on the board, top pair mid kicker i guess, my definition of it anyway,

There is a massive difference.

Raising because no one else did is not a good reason. That is not a raising hand. However, after the flop, I don't quarrel with your play of the hand. i echo the comment above that this is not TPTK. If you hadn't raised preflop, you may not have felt obligated to raise on the flop. Might have lost less.

LeanAndMean said:

Raising because no one else did is not a good reason. That is not a raising hand. However, after the flop, I don't quarrel with your play of the hand. i echo the comment above that this is not TPTK. If you hadn't raised preflop, you may not have felt obligated to raise on the flop. Might have lost less.

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Point taken,
Dont raise jack 10 suited in the bb, got it

Nothing wrong raising J10 suited on the button :S

Extreme Fishing said:

Nothing wrong raising J10 suited on the button :S

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not sure what you mean

lol BIG BLIND NOT BUTTON!

edited

In the BTN, yes you can raise JTs since you can really extract value if you hit.

OOP it is much more difficult especially if you mix up TPMK with TPTK you are not really looking to hit a pair with JT especially OOP, it is just too much trouble.

LD1977 said:

In the BTN, yes you can raise JTs since you can really extract value if you hit.

OOP it is much more difficult especially if you mix up TPMK with TPTK you are not really looking to hit a pair with JT especially OOP, it is just too much trouble.

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Nailed it, thats exactly what i have done.

thanks for the input man.

how can you bust some one in a cash game?

afoostenrijk said:

how can you bust some one in a cash game?

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i took his money, i know what you mean though

i love players who shove flush draws on the flop. i hate players who shove flush draws and get there

T-Dubs82 said:

i love players who shove flush draws on the flop. i hate players who shove flush draws and get there

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I am the same dubs,

ps is dubs because youre irish? (im from dublin lol)

Raise to .16 minimum, more like .20 and always call the shove on this board in this situation. Nothing you can do. You got it in ahead and lost. Good call, math wasn't on your side.

People these days go all in with gutshots flush draws are gold ~ ~. Goodluck not getin sucked out with 3 suited on the board unless u have the nuts.

I would definitely call this shove. Since you have two spades he only has seven outs left from these, plus 3 out from a possible over-card. If he is not on the flush draw then you may be ahead and you also have 14 possible outs (9 spades, 2 other tens, and 3 other jacks) that will put you ahead. You have heaps of equity here.

Well unless they have overs and FD or oesd and flush there normally getting it in bad v tptk etc

I would play JT as top pair much more conservatively vs. most players. Vs. a player who shoves the flop with a flush draw present I would fold nearly 100%. Nitty, but here is why: the likely range here consists of top pair with a better kicker, over pairs, 2 pairs, sets, combo draws ( is straight and flush, over cards and flush), and flush draws. This is a VERY strong range where top pair Jack kicker is in very bad shape.

GWU73 said:

I would play JT as top pair much more conservatively vs. most players. Vs. a player who shoves the flop with a flush draw present I would fold nearly 100%. Nitty, but here is why: the likely range here consists of top pair with a better kicker, over pairs, 2 pairs, sets, combo draws ( is straight and flush, over cards and flush), and flush draws. This is a VERY strong range where top pair Jack kicker is in very bad shape.

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I agree if you had not played the JTs so aggressively earlier you would have not got into this position where you may need to call your whole stack.
I disagree with you regarding the range. Against most possible hands that the villain has in his range the hero is ahead. Remember our hero has top pair and the flush draw against any of the non flush drawing starting hands. Against the flush drawing hands he is ahead with top pair and the removal of two clubs (in his hand) means that the villain is at most only has about 50% chance of winning (you will win about 50% of the time).

He has about $1.00 left to shove you so you would need to call $1.00 to make 1.40. You need to win about 42% of the time to make this call profitable.