This is a discussion on Patient poker vs Aggro poker within the online poker forums, in the Cash Games section; I hear alot of people saying that one of the keys to poker is patience. On the other hand all the books and forums say
I hear alot of people saying that one of the keys to poker is patience. On the other hand all the books and forums say aggression aggression aggression.
My question is can you be a patient player while staying aggressive(TAG?)? Does the patient part come pre flop and the aggressive part come post flop?
I'm pretty curious about this and would like to see some of your thoughts on this topic.
I just don't see patient poker being successful and feel like it was more of an oldschool saying. Or a saying that is more true when you are playing against fish and not against other players that are more advanced in their gameplay.
This is meant for patience and aggression in CASH GAMES! I do think patience probably plays a MUCH larger roll in tournament play.
3rd March 2014, 10:40 PM
For me the key is the patience, before sitting tables, to be ready to make hours of sessions with a small break, and focused and paying attention on their post flop play from regs.
Because the poker is improving , and write down in a paper notes and of course play less tables to get attention on spots and how to pick up spots.
aggro players are going to be exploited and some will be get caught. long sessions will turn some players to auto-pilot. happenned to me a lot.
4th March 2014, 10:33 AM
Poker at: FTP
You assume that aggressiveness is the opposite of patience. Don't think so. You can be very patient and aggressive at the same time.
Being patient refers to waiting for the right spot to come before you play a hand. Being aggressive refers to the style of play once you are in a hand.
So yeah... patience to me still is a key factor.
4th March 2014, 11:27 AM
Online Poker at: 888
re: Poker & Patient poker vs Aggro poker
If you are suffering against aggro players you must play to trap them, this does take the patience of waiting for a good starting hand and reasonable flop. Understand your own natural tendencies and adaptyour play to best tackle the style of your opponents.
They understand that most of the time players don't have a hand and if they bet enough at some point people will muck. If you raise with your good hands they will usually go away as you are telegraphing your strength.
To catch the wolf act like a sheep. When you have a hand just call and call again. Aggro players see calls as weakness and will often bluff raise all in with anything to try and get you to fold. This is when you felt them....often tptk will be enough.
Some also refer to it as rope a dope.
4th March 2014, 6:24 PM
The T in TAG means playing a tight range. The AG means being aggressive when you enter pots. This is not contradictory. TAG requires a degree of patience because you'll be dealt fewer hands to play than if you play a wider range.
4th March 2014, 9:02 PM
John A [4,073]
I have a hunch you're just confusing pre-flop and post flop aggression. The tight (patient) part of tag comes from playing tight pre-flop, and the aggression part is mostly post flop.
I assume if you're asking this question you're playing in the micros somewhere and you'll have some pre-flop aggressive players in your games, but generally very few of those players are good and aggressive post flop players as well. They just tend to be impatient and like to stir the action. You outplay those guys by having better hands when you get in a pot, and playing them better post flop.
In general, there's very few passive players pre-flop, that are aggressive post flop. There are a ton of players that are aggressive pre-flop though, that aren't very aggressive post flop.
If you play a good smart range of hands, and play situational pre-flop play well, you can be patient and aggressive pre-flop, and aggressive post flop.
The key is to play good situational/positional poker. If you do that well, you'll make some good monies. I play pretty aggressive in position, but keep it pretty simple OOP unless I'm against really good regs where I feel I can take creative lines profitably. Here's a SS of how my position looks for example and you can see how aggression goes way up as you get further in position.
4th March 2014, 9:14 PM
Poker at: PokerStars
I think all the above are great posts, especially Fig's first sentence, and Arjonius is right on the money as usual.
I just finished a session of 400 hands on 4 tables that fits the subject of this thread perfectly. All 4 tables when I started were super active and very aggressive in betting.
I had patience (something I've been working on and having some success) and only opened up when I I had the cards to do so. But several times I folded monsters, maybe too often, but what I've learned here told me I should. Like K-K with 2 other players in the pot, both with 200+ hands for stats, and great stats showing real TAG players. With heavy betting, and an A on the turn of an otherwise dry board, I folded my Ks. Hard to do, but I felt it was the best way to play it.
I changed my play to be a little less aggressive when entering pots. With play the way it was, other players would make the pot build soon enough, kind of what Fig was referring to when he spoke of trapping. Here's an example:
Turn: ($0.34) 3 (2 players)
SB bets $0.32, Hero raises to $1.28, SB raises to $1.40 (All-In), Hero calls $0.12
River: ($3.14) 9 (2 players, 1 all-in)
Total pot: $3.14 | Rake: $0.11
Here's another example of where patience pays off. At Micro stakes, eventually you'll find a classic ATM, and a little patience and a lot of luck will enable you to take advantage of his aggressiveness. He had just joined the table and had no stats on him. I have no idea why he played this out the way he did, but the money is better on my account than his. On the flop, a straight was possible, but why would he have opened the way he did? If he had shoved on the flop, I "MIGHT" have folded thinking a flush draw was on (but I had the A):
So, I guess the moral is, yes, being patient and waiting for your chance to get aggressive can pay off when you get the cards. If you're going through a dry spell and the card Gods seem like you got pi$$ed at them, well, so be it. But it does and can work.
As a note, the hand above was the 5th and final time I had P-As in the 400 hands, and the only time it paid off good. Only once before did it get to the Flop and before that, everyone folded to my 3 or 4 bets.
Here's a graph of this session I forgot to add. The long relatively flat spots is where the patience comes in. The one big drop about hand 220 was buddy went runner-runner hearts to flush beat my flopped set of Ks, after he shoved on me after the flop.
8th March 2014, 3:09 AM
Online Poker at: ACR
Game: NLHE PLO LHE
re: Poker & Patient poker vs Aggro poker
The truth is you need Selective Aggression. You have to know why you are betting and have a real reason to believe your opponent is likely to respond the way you want.