Overpair against a reraise on flop

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Dani_California

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Nowadays I have had some serious difficulties of playing overpairs in NL10. Let's say I'm the original raiser with QQ and raise the standard 3bb preflop. One player calls and the flop is all small cards without a possibility to have a straight or flush yet, only a chance for a draw. I continue to raise after the flop but my opponent reraises me. Right now I'm thinking that my opponent has at least two pairs, he has a draw or he just thinks that I am making a cbet with nothing and tries to steal it.

The problem is that in these situations I can't get a read of what they actually have or don't have, and feel like folding an overpair on the flop would be too weak play on my part.

Should I just call that reraise on flop and see what happens? Is folding really wrong? The problem with calling is that in NL10 players WILL continue aggression on turn after a reraise on flop and I basically need that third queen to win because I can't call too much with only one pair. Any advices?
 
Beanfacekilla

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Nowadays I have had some serious difficulties of playing overpairs in NL10. Let's say I'm the original raiser with QQ and raise the standard 3bb preflop. One player calls and the flop is all small cards without a possibility to have a straight or flush yet, only a chance for a draw. I continue to raise after the flop but my opponent reraises me. Right now I'm thinking that my opponent has at least two pairs, he has a draw or he just thinks that I am making a cbet with nothing and tries to steal it.

The problem is that in these situations I can't get a read of what they actually have or don't have, and feel like folding an overpair on the flop would be too weak play on my part.

Should I just call that reraise on flop and see what happens? Is folding really wrong? The problem with calling is that in NL10 players WILL continue aggression on turn after a reraise on flop and I basically need that third queen to win because I can't call too much with only one pair. Any advices?


Not enough info. Post a hand.
 
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Rational Madman

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Nowadays I have had some serious difficulties of playing overpairs in NL10. Let's say I'm the original raiser with QQ and raise the standard 3bb preflop. One player calls and the flop is all small cards without a possibility to have a straight or flush yet, only a chance for a draw. I continue to raise after the flop but my opponent reraises me. Right now I'm thinking that my opponent has at least two pairs, he has a draw or he just thinks that I am making a cbet with nothing and tries to steal it.

The problem is that in these situations I can't get a read of what they actually have or don't have, and feel like folding an overpair on the flop would be too weak play on my part.

Should I just call that reraise on flop and see what happens? Is folding really wrong? The problem with calling is that in NL10 players WILL continue aggression on turn after a reraise on flop and I basically need that third queen to win because I can't call too much with only one pair. Any advices?
Do you have HUD?

Knowing specific street stats for the flop etc is very helpful.
 
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Dani_California

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Not enough info. Post a hand.
I don't have a hand for you because this is hypothetical. I've had these kind of similar hands lately but I really don't remember the dates and times. What more info do you need? Overpair against a reraise on the flop, standard play so far until that reraise. Flop all small cards, no possibility for a straight or flush yet. Biggest hand anyone could had at that point is set.
 
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Rational Madman

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I don't have a hand for you because this is hypothetical. I've had these kind of similar hands lately but I really don't remember the dates and times. What more info do you need? Overpair against a reraise on the flop, standard play so far until that reraise. Flop all small cards, no possibility for a straight or flush yet. Biggest hand anyone could had at that point is set.
Knowing how the flop was played by the individual in the past and their general aggression frequency when entering a hand (which HUD calculates for you) are very key in answering your question.

This is the information.
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

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I don't have a hand for you because this is hypothetical. I've had these kind of similar hands lately but I really don't remember the dates and times. What more info do you need? Overpair against a reraise on the flop, standard play so far until that reraise. Flop all small cards, no possibility for a straight or flush yet. Biggest hand anyone could had at that point is set.


Look, I am going to start this statement with this.... I mean no disrespect. If I'm blunt, I am only trying to help :)


You are asking a hypothetical question. Yet, you have provided no info on V, no board, no suits, no game dynamics, etc, etc, etc, etc.


I don't do cookie cutter advice. There is nothing we can learn from it.


Now, let's say we have Ad-Ah. We raise pre. Dude calls. He is OOP. Flop 2d-6d-7h.

Checks.

We bet whatever.

He c/r.

We have back door nut flush draw, and we have 2 aces that win. But we still don't know how much the raise is, how deep stacks are, what we have seen the villain do in the past, what reads we have, what is our table image, what does this player think of us, etc.



Same scenario, we have Ac-As.

Same board 2d-6d-7h.

Now we don't have as much equity, we lost BDFD.



I have no problem helping anyone who asks. But this is silly man. It's not productive. Give us some hand, dream up a hypothetical spot, whatever.


How can we help you if you fail to grasp the fact that poker is very complex, and we just need more information? It just depends man.
 
bmw13

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the V could have an overpair also or he tried to catch you lets say AK AQ etc ... and he is upset that he didn' t hit ...he could bluff you ...there are a lot of examples ... you should be afraid when the V calls you and calls you the turn also ... he is running for something and your overpair is more likely be cracked
 
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Dani_California

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Look, I am going to start this statement with this.... I mean no disrespect. If I'm blunt, I am only trying to help :)

Don't get me wrong either, I know you are trying to help :) I was just hoping to get more of a casual answer instead of going to every detail. Now, I know that poker is a complex game but sometimes it's also over-analyzed.

I know that there are different scenarios but that's what I was hoping to hear from these answers. What to do when the opponent has been aggressive and what to do when he has been passive? I'm still not talking about any particul hand but more like commonly wondering these overpair situations.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Don't get me wrong either, I know you are trying to help :) I was just hoping to get more of a casual answer instead of going to every detail. Now, I know that poker is a complex game but sometimes it's also over-analyzed.

I know that there are different scenarios but that's what I was hoping to hear from these answers. What to do when the opponent has been aggressive and what to do when he has been passive? I'm still not talking about any particul hand but more like commonly wondering these overpair situations.

In my experience, and I play live 1/2 mostly, passive villains rarely raise anything less than 2p. Aggro villains may raise draws. There are also the types of players who will do this with an inferior over pair.


The way we know what to do depends mostly on what we have seen this particular V do in the past. There are some opponents who seem to raise us all the time. We may suspect they are bluffing us, and trying to run us over. But, until we actually see evidence that they will bluff, we shouldn't ever assume they are in fact bluffing.

There are different types of aggresive players. Recklessly aggressive.... these guys just raise with nonsense. Just pure bluffers, no thought or anything. They just put you to the test everytime they think you may fold. But these guys will be stone bluffing with like very little equity. They won't have a flush draw, or a straight draw, maybe not even a pair. 7h-6d-2d, they raise you with A-4o. You'll see this type of crap if you are watching showdowns. I guess I'd call these guys shitty lags.

Then there will be good LAG players as well. They play sets/2p/draws all the same. You never know what they have. These are the most difficult players to play against. But these guys will usually have a back up plan if called, they have outs to strong 5 card poker hands. Weak players will often think these players are just getting lucky, and they bluff constantly. The thing that poor players don't realize about a solid LAG is they probably have a pretty good idea of what kind of cards they are up against. The good LAG will usually know what his opponents are holding.



If we pay close attention to what our opponents are doing, we should generally put them into some loose categories. If I see a player C/R when he is open ended, with a flush draw, I will be more careful against him. I might even check back 7h-6d-2 against him. We take the play away. So aggro players I will take different lines, than passive players.


If it's some passive whale calling station, I just keep betting until they raise. If I can't beat 2p+, or whatever they have that's prob nuts or near nuts, I just fold. They will call call call call call. But if these types are suddenly c/r you on 7-6-2dd, yeah they just have you smoked man. Fold instantly against these types.


Then there are players who will overplay over pairs. They will limp in and call, or call behind you with say 10-10. If the flop is 7 high, they just fist pump get it in, cause they are terrified of an overcard coming off. If you are watching them, you can identify this type as well. Actual evidence is what we are looking for.

The general theme here is we really have to be paying attention, even if we aren't in hands. We have to know what tendencies our opponents have, to play a spot like this against them. Against a total unknown player, I prob call the flop, and proceed with extreme caution. Hopefully, we have position on them. That is huge. If we are OOP, man that just sucks. It's so much more difficult that way.

Most players at these stakes ($10NL) will probably call too much in general. They'll play too passive. There will probably be some wild cards in the mix too. We really gotta watch the game, and watch our opponents to really know what to do in these types of spots.


And lastly, know the value of your hand. Here is an example.....

Let's say we have Ac-As. The board flops out 7h-6d-2d. If we are up against a hand like 8d-7d we are a slight dog if we get it in on the flop. 8d-7d had 52.xx % chance to win if they get it in vs Ac-As on 7h-6d-2d.

Let's say we have Ad-Ah, and board 7h-6d-2d, and we up against 8d-7d. Those number now flip, we are 52.7, and he is a slight dog. However, either of these spots, if we get it in, we will lose alot. We def don't have a hammerlock on the hand.


Now, we have As-Ac, and board is 7h-6d-2d, and V has 8d-9d this time.

56.2 his favor, 43.7 your favor, if you get it in on the flop, and see all five cards.
 
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Dani_California

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In my experience, and I play live 1/2 mostly, passive villains rarely raise anything less than 2p. Aggro villains may raise draws. There are also the types of players who will do this with an inferior over pair...

Now this post as a whole was something I was after and even more! So thank you! I know that I should pay attention to the table and opponents more than I am now doing. Sometimes I just drift to somewhere else if I'm not in the hand even though I know that I shouldn't. I'm also just a little frustrated to play in NL10 because sometimes it feels like it's just a Wild West out there when players go crazy with just a top pair etc. So you quite never know what they might be having. But I think the key is to start focusing more on those players and make decisions based on that information. I know that I should also finally get that HUD, maybe today :D
 
TheBigFinn

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Let's get more general. You raised and got called preflop
What you you think Villain has? One crucial piece of missing information is your position.

Assuming Villian is in position, one would think he'd raise AA, KK, QQ, AKs, AK, AQs. Since he called he doesn't have those. That leaves suited Broadways, suited connectors and pocket pairs.

Since you stipulated there are no flush or straight draws, we have to ask, "What would he 3-bet with?". You assumed 2 pair or better and against those hands you are behind. But you haven't thought about bluffs. If I think you are the one and done type of player and I have at least a pair, I'll 3-bet to make you fold.

Assuming you are right and Villian has 2 pair, how many outs do you have? There are three board cards with 9 outs to two, pair, but you already gave two of them to Villain,. 7 outs with 2 cards to the river is ~30% you assuming the board does pair you pick up 3 more outs on the river. You'll have two pair ~1/3 of the time. You raised 3BB got called leaving 7 1/2 BBs plus 3 1/2 more for your bet. 11Bbs are in the pot when you're three bet.
If you call and he bets pot on the river and you call, you'll have put 33 more BBs to win 11+11+22 (the pot plus Villian's 2 raises).

Add in some bluffs and I gotta call the turn and a reasonable raise on the river. Why not 4 bet the turn? Only better hands call and the bluffs and pairs fold. Who knows, Villian might just check back the river.
 
koadyawn

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I've been in this situation thousands of time and obviously, the play depends on your opponent.

But let's just say they are all anonymous. In most cases, you just start with a call and see how things play.

Those raises can mean ANYTHING.

Example: Board is 2s 9s 4c. We cbet with QQ and get raised. In this spot villian can have 9x to "see where he is at", TT and "raising for value", JTss and semi-bluffing, a slowplayed AA, or sets.

My point is it depends. vs no reads I like to call with the top part of my cbet range and fold the weaker end.
 
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