Opening hand requirements for Blinds vs Blinds

I lover Pokertracker. I am a spreadsheet guy and I love stats. One thing I discovered while analyzing my play is how much money I am losing by not defending my blinds more aggressively so I came up with a few thoughts on opening hand requirements. (For Full Ring Micros) Now bear in mind my poker brain is still pretty superficial which is why I like input. Now I know if the opponent to the left or right of you folds easily or defends vigorously then you will have to adjust how you play but let's say your opponent is neither;

Folded to SB: You will be OOP so you want cards that play well heads up OOP. So my thoughts are:

22+
A2s+ A2o+
K2s+ K8o+
Q8s+ QTo+
J8s+ JTo
T9s T8s 98s


Big Blind: Since you are IP you can play a lot more hands. If the SB open raises then maybe:

3bet with:
77+
A2s+ A8o+
K9s+ KTo+

and call with;

22-66
K2s-K7s
Q8s+ QJo
J8s+ JTo
Suited Connectors: T9s-65s
Suited 1 gappers: T8s- 75s
T7s 96s
T9o T8o 98o

Thoughts?

Am I a nit?

never mind! I know the answer to that one, but thanks for the input!

fx

I think you would be cold calling way too many hands in the BB by using this chart. And as always it's very opponent dependant, when you're playing a hand, you shouldn't be basing your actions on a chart you made the day before, it's good to anticipate, but you should be thinking about every hand one at a time.

MY range from the SB is waaaaaaay wider than this, but probably a leak. I probably add all suited connectors and unsuited connectors 45+. From the BB is about the same for calling, maybe add 58s too for my looser than average range

The range to call a bet when its on your blind has to be wider.Any pair or Ace or suited connectors you have to protect your blind.

ben_rhyno said:

MY range from the SB is waaaaaaay wider than this, but probably a leak. I probably add all suited connectors and unsuited connectors 45+. From the BB is about the same for calling, maybe add 58s too for my looser than average range

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It probably is. Your SB opening range should be about the same as MP.

I like the idea of having a chart for standard, you can't adjust unless you move from something.

You must play pretty tight in the SB, as you will be OOP for the rest of the hand. So sticking to MP's range sounds about right.

You will play OOP but you only have to worry about one player to act after you whereas in MP you will have 5 or 6 players to act after you decide whether to put money in the pot (in FR). Therefore, in the SB you really only need equity against the midppoint of the 169 possible opening hands. Since you need a better hand to call a raise than to raise, in theory against an average opponent who defends their blinds at an average rate you should be able to raise with any hand Q7o or better.

fx20736 said:

You will play OOP but you only have to worry about one player to act after you whereas in MP you will have 5 or 6 players to act after you decide whether to put money in the pot (in FR). Therefore, in the SB you really only need equity against the midppoint of the 169 possible opening hands. Since you need a better hand to call a raise than to raise, in theory against an average opponent who defends their blinds at an average rate you should be able to raise with any hand Q7o or better.

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If I know someone is opening 50% of hands against me in the SB then I'm gonna be calling really wide and playing with position on you. And you'll get crushed. You might need a stronger hand to call as you said, but with position I don't need to be as strong as you think.

LuckyChippy said:

If I know someone is opening 50% of hands against me in the SB then I'm gonna be calling really wide and playing with position on you. And you'll get crushed. You might need a stronger hand to call as you said, but with position I don't need to be as strong as you think.

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I'm not saying I would open with anywhere near 50% of hands. In fact I play way less than 30% which is probably too tight. I was merely making pointing out the difference between opening with 5 or 6 players to act after you and just one. My thought in making this OP was that I need to open up my blind vs. blind play as I am folding in the BB to SB steals way too often and not attempting to steal from the SB enough. The other point I didn't make but am curious about is BB 3betting vs SB raises. That's where table image must really matter most as it is important to know if a BB 3bet is a bluff or value bet.

fx20736 said:

I'm not saying I would open with anywhere near 50% of hands. In fact I play way less than 30% which is probably too tight. I was merely making pointing out the difference between opening with 5 or 6 players to act after you and just one. My thought in making this OP was that I need to open up my blind vs. blind play as I am folding in the BB to SB steals way too often and not attempting to steal from the SB enough. The other point I didn't make but am curious about is BB 3betting vs SB raises. That's where table image must really matter most as it is important to know if a BB 3bet is a bluff or value bet.

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The small blind is not where you should attempt to steal. Positional disadvantage is huge and a good, thinking player in the BB can just float your c-bet and bet the turn to steal the pot. The button is where you should play most of your hands. Despite having two more players to act when you're on the button (as opposed to one when you're in the SB), positional advantage will take down the pot uncontested on the flop most of the time. Blinds vs blinds play is not what you should focus on as HUD programs like PokerTracker will reveal that SB and BB is where you're losing most of your money (unsurprisingly). Instead, trying to see as many cheap flops as you can in position so as to maximise your income from CO and BTN (theoretically the most profitable positions), and your win rate should improve.

fx20736 said:

Big Blind: Since you are IP you can play a lot more hands. If the SB open raises then maybe:

3bet with:
77+
A2s+ A8o+
K9s+ KTo+

and call with;

22-66
K2s-K7s
Q8s+ QJo
J8s+ JTo
Suited Connectors: T9s-65s
Suited 1 gappers: T8s- 75s
T7s 96s
T9o T8o 98o

Thoughts?

Am I a nit?

never mind! I know the answer to that one, but thanks for the input!

fx

Click to expand...

Ever thought about calling with the bigger hands to get more value from them? If your opponent is stealing from the small blind do we really want to be scaring him off with our big hands pre flop?

BTW, read the first couple of pages from this thread, some interesting posts about BvB to read over

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/april-cash-game-thread-173622/

stubzy11 said:

Ever thought about calling with the bigger hands to get more value from them? If your opponent is stealing from the small blind do we really want to be scaring him off with our big hands pre flop?

Click to expand...

I have thought about flatting with AA/ KK maybe even QQ/ AK but haven't pulled the trigger. I'll experiment and let you know.

Also I am just starting to read BelgoSuisse's Bvb posts in the April Cash thread.

Thanks again

I agree with the idea that B vs B isn't that frequent or equitable play to make. However, when it does, I'm thinking 30-35% of the hands in the SB should be used for raises. At 50% raises, the BB can play a wide range and crush the SB. But with a raising percentage at 30-35%, its not as easy for BB to float you. Now he has to have a decent hand as he knows you are picking up some value to play with. Offsets his position a bit.

As the BB I think you have to 3 bet your powerhouse hands 20-30% of the time in order to protect the value of your 3 bet. If you always just call with big hands, then as SB I can read your cards and adjust my calling requirements accordingly when you do 3 bet.

I am a believer in each situation is different. I may not play the same bb or sb hands against one player to another. If the bb is playing really tight then I will open up my hands, but if I raise and the bb continually re re-raises then my choices go down. Every hand should be played different according to the buy in and players and bank rolls. I don't think I can just say I am going to play these hands in the sb not knowing the situation.

My ATS from the SB is exactly the same as it is from the BTN (41%).

I call 25% of the time in the BB when the SB opens. I 3bet 6%. I raise 100% of the time the SB limps (to 4x).

It's way more player dependent than any defined range can account for though. I'll open ATC vs a BB nit but fold Axo vs a decent player.