Open-limping: Is it so bad?

Mr Sandbag

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Time and time again I'll read about why a poker player should never open-limp with any hand. Why?

Is it because opponents will know you don't have the top end of your range, like I've heard so many times? If so, how does limping differ from open-limping? If someone open-limps for $2 and you follow suit, an opponent can just as easily conclude that you don't have a premium here either.

I'm not saying it's a habit of mine to open-limp, but I can't say that I never do it. I may open-limp with a small pair in hopes of getting to a flop cheaply. If someone does raise, I often have the correct odds to set mine. If I open-raise with a small pair and someone 3-bets, it's unlikely I'll have the odds to set mine and will be playing the hand OOP (most of the time).

Thoughts?
 
Blobweird123

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Time and time again I'll read about why a poker player should never open-limp with any hand. Why?

Is it because opponents will know you don't have the top end of your range, like I've heard so many times? If so, how does limping differ from open-limping? If someone open-limps for $2 and you follow suit, an opponent can just as easily conclude that you don't have a premium here either.

I'm not saying it's a habit of mine to open-limp, but I can't say that I never do it. I may open-limp with a small pair in hopes of getting to a flop cheaply. If someone does raise, I often have the correct odds to set mine. If I open-raise with a small pair and someone 3-bets, it's unlikely I'll have the odds to set mine and will be playing the hand OOP (most of the time).

Thoughts?

Ok so for one, you need a better hand to raise 4 limpers than one. So overlimping is better for that. Secondly, open limping loses value when you do make a real hand plus if get raised pre to a standard 4x you paid one more bb than if you just open raised. Thirdly, you are not "most of the time" getting 3b when you open pp's. You prolly have a super small sample. Or you do call OOP too often and your opponents 3b you relentlessly to exploit it.
 
RodneyC86

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You know, I have seen microstakes players who NEVER ever open raises pre with VPIP of 30ish and never backraises. They seem to do fairly well on a table sufficiently aggressive to almost never have someone raise their limp.
If anything, it's somewhat harder to read these guys. But not much harder than the standard player to give them a big enough edge to overcome their lack of extracting value from big hands.
 
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If you are playing against medium/good players then you have to open any hand you play with a raise. It´s just a question of image. You want to give a image of strength. However, and because i normally play against true and pure and natural gifted donkey, i always limp in calling the big blind. I do that because i will see tons and tons of flops, and that could be a really good advantage to steal their chips. They never respect a raise so why should i do? Remember, this is only valid against donkeys.
 
RodneyC86

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You know, I have seen microstakes players who NEVER ever open raises pre with VPIP of 30ish and never backraises. They seem to do fairly well on a table sufficiently aggressive to almost never have someone raise their limp.
Sorry meant to say almost never have no one raise their limp
 
Vhyre

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All things being situational, I don't agree that you should open every hand you decide to play with a raise. The occasional limp switches things up. If you do the same things again and again, youre not just creating an image but giving a read. mixing things up is seldom a bad thing.
 
LuckyBundy13

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Limping is bad, over-limping is horrible. Yet it is still play that you'll have to use given the right situation. A good example would be to trap/re-raise a maniac that always raises pre. Hope this helps.
 
dmorris68

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As with anything in poker, nothing is 100%. We can't say *never* open-limp but we can say *almost never.* In general it's a bad idea, but in certain situations it's called for. To be successful in poker, you have to adapt to the situation at hand, and sometimes that means going against convention.

In particular, the micro stakes play very differently than the higher stakes, same as live plays very differently from online. In the online micros and most any small stakes live game, lots of limping is standard, and many will call any raise to see a flop then play fit or fold. While I still wouldn't open limp much, overlimping speculative hands when you have such juicy odds is fine because you can very often take the pot after flop without risking a lot to get there.

As a general rule though, in online games with at least some solid players, your PFR should be somewhere around 85-90% of your VPIP, which equates to very little limping/calling preflop.
 
Mr Sandbag

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Ok so for one, you need a better hand to raise 4 limpers than one. So overlimping is better for that. Secondly, open limping loses value when you do make a real hand plus if get raised pre to a standard 4x you paid one more bb than if you just open raised. Thirdly, you are not "most of the time" getting 3b when you open pp's. You prolly have a super small sample. Or you do call OOP too often and your opponents 3b you relentlessly to exploit it.

Sorry I meant most of the time we are playing OOP when we get 3-bet unless one of the blinds does it.

And just for context, I play 1/2 NL live almost exclusively. Tons of limping in that game, even by players holding AK. I've even played with a few players who literally will not raise preflop even with AA.
 
Aces2w1n

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Limping in with low pockets is just asking to be coolered.
 
S3mper

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Limping in with low pockets is just asking to be coolered.

I don' know about that but with limping small PP from early position your not really giving your self a chance to win unless you hit a set.

If you limp wit 33 and flop comes A-j-4 what are you going to represent in this spot? by limping you took a big Ace out of your range and opponent may question if you would bet with a J here, so now your stuck with a little pair of 3's with little chance of winning

If you raise your pocket 3's pre flop 1.)the BB may not even get to see the hand 2.) if flop comes A-J-4 your giving yourself a chance to win by being able to represent something better then you have.

On the other hand if your limping small- med PP you become predictable and give your opponents a feel where you are at and when you do decide to raise with a big hand it can be harder to get paid off

Also by limping your just asking for some one to squeeze you out of the pot especially if people over limp behind you.
 
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loafes

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I have to say, I used to almost never open limp, it's just such a bad play that should be punished. However I've found lately that I've been throwing in an occasional open limp at specific tables with speculative hands at 2NL simply because not a single player is exploiting it. Personally I like to punish limpers relentlessly from late position and the blinds, plus even just getting to see flops against limpers I can narrow their range pretty easily.

so lately hands like small pps from early position that I used to fold or small suited aces I have occasionally if I feel the table will let me get away with it I will limp, crazy I know limping from early position. But the thing is these players are not isolating and they don't seem to be able incorporate the fact that I liped into their thought process for post flop. So I think seeing these cheap flops with high implied odds hands is adding to my EV since normally they would just be mucked. Obviously if their is even one competent or semi competent player at the table then open limping will usually be avoided. I'm mainly talking FR here by the way
 
Cafeman

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There are some people who open limp sPPs from EP. I know that's what they're doing, so I raise and take it down with a cbet. They never make enough money when they hit a set, not from me anyway. Even better: weak player limps sPP in EP, decent reg raises, I 3bet and get to take all their money :D

I wonder about open limping, and how we can have an open limping range that doesn't interfere with the value we get from raising?
 
loafes

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There are some people who open limp sPPs from EP. I know that's what they're doing, so I raise and take it down with a cbet. They never make enough money when they hit a set, not from me anyway. Even better: weak player limps sPP in EP, decent reg raises, I 3bet and get to take all their money :D


Yeah but I'm guessing that you are not a 2NL fish?

I've only started limping spps from ep on 2NL tables when I know there are no regs and I will get away with it plus be payed off when I hit.
 
S3mper

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Throw in a limp with AA vs players that like to punish limpers =)
 
Cafeman

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Yeah loafes, if you will get paid, then why not. Tougher competition won't always oblige though. Same is true for limping AA, what's the plan? Backraise? x/r the flop? You're still not getting paid off by competent players.

Throw in a limp with AA vs players that like to punish limpers =)
Do you think we can make up for the value we lose by not open raising AA?
 
loafes

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Throw in a limp with AA vs players that like to punish limpers =)
Then they muck their JJ when you limp reraise UTG

or worse still you invite a 4 way pot and the board runs 9s 10s Js :p
 
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S3mper

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Then they muck their JJ when you limp reraise UTG

or worse still you invite a 4 way pot and the board runs 9s 10s Js :p

Who said any thing about re raising? -)

If its HU (Definitely not talking about 4NL)by HU I mean 6 max but your in a spot you could flat his raise he probably made it 4x+ to punish you anyways so this is more then the 2.5x you were gonna make it so that's +EV

He probably C bets and you take the route you think makes the most money

If there are people to act behind you then raise and maybe hopefully get one caller.

(I don't know how to double quote) so @ Café the bolded part is me answering ur Q
 
DonV73

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Depends on your hand. I don't think it is good to open-limp with a strong hand because what will happen is that you will get called by worser hands, which can hit a flop, and therefore the value of your hand will go down.

Hands like QQ, KK, AA do a lot better against only 1 opponent then against several opponents, so therefore you should open-raise.

Hands like 98s, T9s or small pairs like 33 or 44, it could be better to limp since they potentially do better against several opponent. You could hit a monster like a flush, straight or trips.

Sometimes it could be good to open-limp AA. For example when you have some very preflop aggresive players behind you and so you certain someone is gonna raise anyway, then you might limp AA from UTG or EP, and then reraise when someone raises behind you.

You will notice btw that on lower stakes you will get away with open-limping much more than on higher stakes, where they will punish you and raise your limp almost all the time.

This is my humble opinion. Hope it helps!
 
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pokerboss56

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I mean limping surely has no value really. Playing OOP with a large stack to pot ratio is never that good surely?
 
Mr Sandbag

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I have to say, I used to almost never open limp, it's just such a bad play that should be punished. However I've found lately that I've been throwing in an occasional open limp at specific tables with speculative hands at 2NL simply because not a single player is exploiting it. Personally I like to punish limpers relentlessly from late position and the blinds, plus even just getting to see flops against limpers I can narrow their range pretty easily.

so lately hands like small pps from early position that I used to fold or small suited aces I have occasionally if I feel the table will let me get away with it I will limp, crazy I know limping from early position. But the thing is these players are not isolating and they don't seem to be able incorporate the fact that I liped into their thought process for post flop. So I think seeing these cheap flops with high implied odds hands is adding to my EV since normally they would just be mucked. Obviously if their is even one competent or semi competent player at the table then open limping will usually be avoided. I'm mainly talking FR here by the way

I think this is maybe why I created this thread in the first place. In 1/2 NL live, players are rarely good enough to punish EP limpers or even consider that I limped postflop. It may have skewed my thinking a bit since the consequences are slim to none when open-limping at 1/2.
 
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If your goal is to continue playing micro-games and have no further endeavors to reach higher limit tables, than the strategy you are using may be working fine for you; however, the psychology of that play will not serve you on higher limit tables and will work against you there.
 
R

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As long as you change up with what you limp with, i dont think its a bad move. You have to do it with bigger pairs if you're only doing it small pairs. Over time, players will know what hands you have and take advantage of it so mixing it up will make it hard for your opponents.
 
JusSumguy

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EVERY time I limp I get burned.

JusSayin

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