Online Tourneys: When IS it time to accumulate chips?

I've read it time and time again: "The only hand it's worth being allin on at the start of a tourney is AA." "You can't win a tourney on the first hand but you sure can lose it." (The second quote is an oft-paraphrased TJ Cloutier comment.)

Really? So, KK on the first hand is too weak? But, when you're down to 10 BBs 2 hours later it's ok to go broke? Really? What's your time worth? Isn't there another tourney just around the corner? Why is KK (or AKs or QQ) too weak at the start but strong enough to bust out of the money with 2 hours later?

"I can find a better spot later to get my money in with."

Really? I played a 180 runner tourney recently where the BEST hand I got was 77. Yeah, I picked up K4s, Q5o etc, but I think 77 is a little better than those...especially the position I had when they came. So, no, you won't necessarily find a better spot.

The reality of online tournaments (and many live tourneys where you start with only 75-100 BBs) is you will NOT always get that shot later.

You need chips NOW, not when you're short. Would you rather face the chip leader with AA allin preflop when you have 10 BBs or when you have 90? The winning odds are the same...the only difference is you can really chip up when you have the 90.

And, consider your time and "fun" factor. Where's the fun in playing for 2 hours+ only to bust out right after the money? You paid $1.10 to enter and you grossed $1.60 or so.

I'm not suggesting you become a loose donk. I do recommend you ignore the auto-fold button. Who's on your left? Mr Tightbutt and MsIOnlyBetTheFlopWhenIHit? Think! Try using position. Steal every now and then.

You Need Chips NOW!

well, I agree that quickly double ur stack in the beginning tournament does not mean doubling ur chances of victory.

I also think if u are short, u must go all-in with AA, but if u are in game, u must bet x3/x4 and then see the flop.

(example : UTG with AA goes all-in pre-flop, all folds, but SB with KcQc call --- > FLOP : 10c 4h 3c ---> TURN : 5h ---> RIVER : 2c.
In this example, u can see that u are stronger on pre-flop, on the flop and on the turn, but u loose on the river.
So, u can't do anything if u go all-in on pre-flop, but if u don't go all-in, u should raise strongly on the flop and then on the turn and ur opponent folds 100% coz he's runner runner.
So, why do u risk all-in pre-flop for a little pot, if u can increase it better?).

My best tournaments has been in short stack with more and more and more patience.

I think there's not a TIME to increase ur stack, but there's 2 POSITIONS to steal when u are short and quite strong (CO,DEALER)

You don't have to have a monster hand in order to double or triple your stack of chips. When I am 'in the mood' or 'feel' I'm going to have a good hand I just call the BB to see the flop with a 'medium' hand.
You will be amazed what a 9,6o can do for you after the flop - THEN, go ALL IN.
Going ALL IN pre-flop is counting more on luck than on skill and I don't like that.
I rarely go ALL IN pre-flop, if I have AA or KK (or QQ or AK) I raise a lot, if forced, I go all in pre-flop, but again, this is rare.
Patience is the name of the game.

btw, I play poker for fun not as a second salary so "what's the point of playing for 2 hours winning only 50 cents..." is irrelevant as one could equally ask "What's the point of watching a movie?"

"People often ask very specific questions about how to be a winning tournament player:

• How many chips am I supposed to have after the first two levels?
• Should I play a lot of hands early while the blinds are small, then tighten up later as the blinds increase?
• I seem to always finish on the bubble. Should I tighten up more as I get close to the money, or try to accumulate more chips early on?

Surprisingly, all three questions have the same answer:
Stop trying to force things to happen. Just concentrate on playing solid poker, and let the chips fall where they may."


"How many chips am I supposed to have after the first two levels?
The short answer is: As many as you can get. "



Online Poker at Full Tilt Poker - Non-Navigable Content: Tips From the Pros: 6th August 2008
Online Poker at Full Tilt Poker - Non-Navigable Content: Tips From the Pros: 13th August 2008

Brann6 said:

I've read it time and time again: "The only hand it's worth being allin on at the start of a tourney is AA." "You can't win a tourney on the first hand but you sure can lose it." (The second quote is an oft-paraphrased TJ Cloutier comment.)

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It`s important to realise that much of the advice given by pros about MTT play relates to the major live tournaments in which they play, where a tourney may extend over several days and the blinds rise very slowly.

Most online tournaments (and minor live ones) progress much more rapidly, and one must adjust accordingly.

Arnold Snyder`s book "The Poker Tournament Formula" is largely devoted to discussion of the pace and structure of MTTs, and their effect on strategy. The subject is too complex to really go into here, but if you are a regular tourney player, Snyder`s ideas are well worth a look.

Actually, Snyder's PTF One is what's prompted me to look at things from a different perspective.

I'm not advocating a "Kill Phil" strategy of allin or nothing. But I am saying that in short beginning stack online tournaments you have to start looking for opportunities right from the start. I've read posts on forums where people talk about folding QQ to an allin re-raise at level one. With so many people trying to be "aggressive" these days it's not unusual to see 3 allins with AK, KQs and 77 at level one. I'm suggesting it's not especially smart to forgo chances like this with a top hand.

It also kind of depends on the structure of the tourney, like antoniorum was saying about the short stack tourneys. With those you need to accumulate your chips fast otherwise you will blind out. Likewise with the Turbo or Ultra-Turbo tourney because they move so fast.
Now if you are playing deep stack or even regular stack with regular blind increases then you can slow it down a bit.

u just have to be patient. I u get cards early get ur money in good vs weak players. Otherwise youll have to find spots later but dont panic.

Brann6 said:

The reality of online tournaments (and many live tourneys where you start with only 75-100 BBs) is you will NOT always get that shot later.

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There's a significant difference between usually getting a better shot and never. Citing an extreme example where your best hand was 77 proves only that it can happen *once in a while*. But does it happen often enough to provide sufficient reason to change your overall tournament strategy?

And how far are you going to go with this reductio ad absurdum-type line of reasoning? If I assume I'm not going to get playable cards, then should I simply push any time I hold 77 or better early in a tourney?

Also, putting value on the time you've already played seems odd when applied to a single tournament. Over time, it can be worthwhile to look at hourly win rate, but one tournament is far too tiny a sample.

I cited the one tourney as an example only. What I AM saying is too many people will forego taking a shot with, say AQ, only to push three hands later with A3 because they finally realized the upcoming blinds were going to chew up a huge chunk of their stack.

I've become even more aggressive lately after reading blogs from Bond18. Pretty illuminating and, I must add, profitable advice there.

GoodWoodRR said:

u just have to be patient. I u get cards early get ur money in good vs weak players. Otherwise youll have to find spots later but dont panic.

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If it's early in a tournament, how do you know who the "weak" players are? and are they really weak or trying to trap? Many strategists will advise limping early in a tourney to see cheap flops while the blinds are low, as it's easy to "let go" if you miss the flop. I suggest the following early, "if it ain't worth raising, it ain't worth playin".

Pothole said:

If it's early in a tournament, how do you know who the "weak" players are? and are they really weak or trying to trap? Many strategists will advise limping early in a tourney to see cheap flops while the blinds are low, as it's easy to "let go" if you miss the flop. I suggest the following early, "if it ain't worth raising, it ain't worth playin".

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You might not be able to right away, but once you have played enough poker and seen how different people play in the beginning compared to who makes it to the end, you will be able to pick out who the weak players are within their first 10 hands(not necessarily the first 10 hands of the tourney, their first 10).

mzkatie said:

later the better

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The later the better would just give you more of a chance of blinding your chips down. You have to make some moves early on otherwise when you do the the monster later on you won't have very many chips to double up with. Also, I don't think it needed to take three posts all right in a row, in less than 2 minutes, to convey what you did. You could have just as easily edited your original post.

u need forward the blinds....need action conform the blins up. need give a stak around 30x the bb to make the rigth decisions. and forget the average! play with the blinds.