The nuances of a FLUSH DRAW?

or3o1990

or3o1990

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I found myself in a few spots today where I had a nut flush draw and not one of them worked out for me. I'm mostly content with how I played them all but I'm looking for some input on how they could have been played better and why. Which lines are better vs what types of villains? And the role overcards play in deciding which line is the best? Fold equity?

PokerStars - $1 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG+1: 193.59 BB (VPIP: 45.78, PFR: 16.87, 3Bet Preflop: 2.56, hands: 84)
MP: 35.55 BB (VPIP: 26.09, PFR: 8.70, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 23)
MP+1: 103.7 BB (VPIP: 38.10, PFR: 7.14, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 42)
CO: 15.88 BB (VPIP: 26.00, PFR: 9.09, 3Bet Preflop: 8.89, Hands: 100)
BTN: 97.82 BB (VPIP: 43.10, PFR: 12.07, 3Bet Preflop: 3.85, Hands: 58)
Hero (SB): 171.8 BB
BB: 34.5 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 8)
UTG: 243.69 BB (VPIP: 25.51, PFR: 15.31, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 98)

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has T A

fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to 3.5 BB, Hero raises to 11 BB, fold, BTN calls 7.5 BB

Flop: (23 BB, 2 players) 2 J 6
Hero bets 15 BB, BTN calls 15 BB

Turn: (53 BB, 2 players) 6
Hero checks, BTN bets 31.93 BB, fold

BTN wins 50.35 BB

This was shortly after the first hand on the same table. The villian here was a bit of a nit and I figured he had an overpair. I could easily have a 6 but he was a fish so I shouldn't have tried bluffing him but I didn't want to c/f again.

PokerStars - $1 NL - Holdem - 7 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 87.94 BB (VPIP: 26.67, PFR: 13.33, 3Bet Preflop: 6.67, Hands: 30)
CO: 91.06 BB (VPIP: 36.73, PFR: 6.12, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 49)
BTN: 12.88 BB (VPIP: 25.23, PFR: 8.49, 3Bet Preflop: 8.70, Hands: 107)
SB: 130.19 BB (VPIP: 46.15, PFR: 13.85, 3Bet Preflop: 3.70, Hands: 65)
Hero (BB): 145.8 BB
UTG: 50 BB
UTG+1: 226.62 BB (VPIP: 25.96, PFR: 14.42, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 105)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB, UTG posts penalty blind 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.5 BB) Hero has A 3

UTG checks, fold, fold, CO raises to 3 BB, fold, SB calls 2.5 BB, Hero calls 2 BB, UTG calls 2 BB

Flop: (12 BB, 4 players) 2 6 6
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, CO bets 12 BB, fold, Hero raises to 37 BB, fold, CO calls 25 BB

Turn: (86 BB, 2 players) 5
Hero bets 52 BB, CO calls 51.06 BB and is all-in

River: (188.12 BB, 2 players) J

CO shows Q Q (Two Pair, Queens and Sixes)
(Pre 67%, Flop 59%, Turn 68%)
Hero shows A 3 (One Pair, Sixes)
(Pre 33%, Flop 41%, Turn 32%)
CO wins 185.12 BB

Here's another..

PokerStars - $1 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 41.79 BB (VPIP: 83.33, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 50.00, Hands: 6)
BTN: 183.76 BB (VPIP: 24.39, PFR: 12.20, 3Bet Preflop: 5.56, Hands: 41)
SB: 156.55 BB (VPIP: 36.67, PFR: 6.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 60)
BB: 100 BB
UTG: 136.19 BB (VPIP: 46.05, PFR: 14.47, 3Bet Preflop: 3.57, Hands: 76)
Hero (UTG+1): 95.53 BB
MP: 10.78 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)
MP+1: 100 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB, MP+1 posts penalty blind 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.5 BB) Hero has J A

fold, Hero raises to 4 BB, MP calls 4 BB, MP+1 calls 3 BB, CO calls 4 BB, BTN calls 4 BB, fold, BB calls 3 BB

Flop: (24.5 BB, 6 players) Q 4 2
BB checks, Hero bets 14 BB, MP calls 6.78 BB and is all-in, fold, fold, BTN calls 14 BB, fold

Turn: (59.28 BB, 3 players) 6
Hero checks, BTN checks

River: (59.28 BB, 3 players) 8
Hero checks, BTN checks

Hero shows J A (High Card, Ace)
(Pre 59%, Flop 49%, Turn 29%)
MP shows J Q (One Pair, Queens)
(Pre 16%, Flop 42%, Turn 67%)
BTN shows Q 9 (One Pair, Queens)
(Pre 25%, Flop 9%, Turn 5%)
BTN wins 13.73 BB
MP wins 42.6 BB

Here I was certain that my opponent had at least an ace but I have the nut flush draw so I'm not going anywhere. Is it better to call and try to hit while I'm getting a good price considereing my J and K are certainly not good? Or is it better to play it as I did and put pressure on the AQ-Ax?

PokerStars - $2 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP+1: 118.01 BB (VPIP: 14.29, PFR: 8.57, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 35)
Hero (MP+2): 101.5 BB
CO: 100 BB
BTN: 27.5 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 5)
SB: 67.29 BB (VPIP: 40.00, PFR: 22.86, 3Bet Preflop: 8.33, Hands: 35)
BB: 70.25 BB (VPIP: 14.29, PFR: 2.86, 3Bet Preflop: 6.67, Hands: 35)
UTG: 110.45 BB (VPIP: 2.86, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 35)
UTG+1: 111.76 BB (VPIP: 28.57, PFR: 23.81, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 21)
MP: 45.18 BB (VPIP: 11.11, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 9)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB, CO posts penalty blind 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.5 BB) Hero has K J

fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 5 BB, fold, fold, SB calls 4.5 BB, fold

Flop: (12 BB, 2 players) A 8 2
SB checks, Hero bets 8 BB, SB raises to 18 BB, Hero raises to 73.42 BB, SB calls 44.29 BB and is all-in

Turn: (136.57 BB, 2 players) J

River: (136.57 BB, 2 players) 6

Hero shows K J (One Pair, Jacks)
(Pre 30%, Flop 37%, Turn 25%)
SB shows K A (One Pair, Aces)
(Pre 70%, Flop 63%, Turn 75%)
SB wins 135.07 BB
 
M

maxpayne1994

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man,to flush that you are hoping to come of 10 games is 2 or 3 ...
ie the long-term depending on so much that bet or the size of your stack, not worth paying, then I think it's worth your time to analyze the game ...
I paid the draw only when I see that I have conditions
soon:
not there is an accurate way to play them better, you have to analyze the table and your opponents, and in most cases you should go instead of betting against made games and end up involving much money, not unless you want to bluff at the end. ..
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

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Whenever the board pairs it's not usually great to add more chips in.

I generally don't try and play overally aggressive unless I at least gut a gutshot/flush draw or at least paired the board with a flush. That is my general rule.

Opt for more pot control and you'll work it out. There was advice somewhere that you should actually still bet even tho you miss your draw. A good Table image and you'll get more folds. It's saved me a few times where I've managed to get some funny folds. But that's last resort and i'll often re-analyse my hands to see if i'm playing perfect or I need to step back and fix my mindset.
 
Karozi615

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Why do you always play flush draws so fast and aggressive? Why would you 3bet with AT in the sb lol? Why open KJ for 5x?

Honestly man, when you check raised the A3 on 662 board what were you expecting?


check raising is bad, bad players check raise, it isn't optimal and you lose value, STOP DOING THAT

baddies open KJ for 5x and AJ for 4x, you should be opening smaller, just seeing that is annoying

And honestly, the AT hand is putting me on tilt just reading it. Why would you ever ever ever raise in that spot? AT suited is like a mile ahead of the buttons opening range, it's the perfect perfect perfect hand to underrep and take a passive line with, you can keep the pot smaller and realize your equity in certain spots (like the one above where you totally blew it) and you basically allow the button to continue betting into a pair while you collect.

You'd be better off 3betting 5h6h or an ACTUAL premium, AT is pretty damn marginal their and I think a competent player is rarely 3betting in that spot.

Just be thankful you didn't luckbox any of these hands, now that you've run slightly below -ev you can go back to the drawing board and find your real problems.
 
or3o1990

or3o1990

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Thanks for the input guys. Just looking for some different perspectives is all.

@karozi615

I play a pretty aggressive game mostly. I dont play on stars and most of the opponents where i play are passive so it works.

The c/r most likely folds out the better aces obv not the over pairs but there are more unpaired hands than over pairs so I'm fine with that. Nothing is always bad, so that doesn't make sense.

I prefer raising to calling oop and a cbet gets rid of aj-ak the 2/3 of the time they miss and i don't mind just taking it down pre either. I prefer taking it down pre to playing oop.

I opened kj to 5x because i was attacking the post. The villian had ak but if he had a9 or worse he most likely goes away and i win pre. Im fine with that.

In all of these spots i ran into the tops of my opponents range. There are still a lot of better hands that could have folded.


Thats not to say i couldn't have taken more winning lines though
 
Karozi615

Karozi615

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Thanks for the input guys. Just looking for some different perspectives is all.

@karozi615

I play a pretty aggressive game mostly. I dont play on stars and most of the opponents where i play are passive so it works.

The c/r most likely folds out the better aces obv not the over pairs but there are more unpaired hands than over pairs so I'm fine with that. Nothing is always bad, so that doesn't make sense.

I prefer raising to calling oop and a cbet gets rid of aj-ak the 2/3 of the time they miss and i don't mind just taking it down pre either. I prefer taking it down pre to playing oop.

I opened kj to 5x because i was attacking the post. The villian had ak but if he had a9 or worse he most likely goes away and i win pre. Im fine with that.

In all of these spots i ran into the tops of my opponents range. There are still a lot of better hands that could have folded.


Thats not to say i couldn't have taken more winning lines though

True, check raising is USUALLY bad but occasionally it is fine. I didn't like it in that spot. Conservative lines with flush draws are generally more +EV especially against random unknowns.

I see what you did with KJ, I would just wonder if the villains folding range changes whether or not we make it 3.5x or 5x (blind vs blind is one of the only exceptions for larger opening sizes, so in that regard I do get it)

You could try to open small with KJ type hands in the SB and try to get a couple streets of value from pair vs pair, my only concern is that when you do open for 5x, and villain calls, and you make a standard Cbet for about 70% pot, all of the sudden on the turn their is 24 big blinds in the pot, whether your flop bet was a value bet or not. So instead of trying to get a fold preflop, I would be trying to get action with what is likely the best hand with a smaller raised that could totally induce super light defends.


^Would hate to be contending for a 24BB pot on the turn on a K225 board OOP with a villain who has renewed interest. Reverse implieds are pretty gross, all because the 5x preflop bloats the pot on all future streets.

A 2x with a 2.7x Cbet would yield a 9.44 BB pot on the turn, super sweet for us because were OOP and with KJ we can make marginal hands that are PERFECT for winning medium sized pots.

Just my 2 cents on the importance of bet sizing.
 
or3o1990

or3o1990

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True, check raising is USUALLY bad but occasionally it is fine. I didn't like it in that spot. Conservative lines with flush draws are generally more +EV especially against random unknowns.

I see what you did with KJ, I would just wonder if the villains folding range changes whether or not we make it 3.5x or 5x (blind vs blind is one of the only exceptions for larger opening sizes, so in that regard I do get it)

You could try to open small with KJ type hands in the SB and try to get a couple streets of value from pair vs pair, my only concern is that when you do open for 5x, and villain calls, and you make a standard Cbet for about 70% pot, all of the sudden on the turn their is 24 big blinds in the pot, whether your flop bet was a value bet or not. So instead of trying to get a fold preflop, I would be trying to get action with what is likely the best hand with a smaller raised that could totally induce super light defends.


^Would hate to be contending for a 24BB pot on the turn on a K225 board OOP with a villain who has renewed interest. Reverse implieds are pretty gross, all because the 5x preflop bloats the pot on all future streets.

A 2x with a 2.7x Cbet would yield a 9.44 BB pot on the turn, super sweet for us because were OOP and with KJ we can make marginal hands that are PERFECT for winning medium sized pots.

Just my 2 cents on the importance of bet sizing.

I agree that the c/r was a mistake. I wanted to think he could have some Ax but that's just not the case when he bets into so many people. I knew that for sure after he'd called. I think it's not so bad if it was a heads up or three way pot but here it's definitely a mistake.

If I'd made a K instead of a flush draw I would have been more inclined to pot control. But you make some interesting points about the bet sizings. You should drop into the Polished Poker thread. I'm the only Bovada player there besides John, it would be nice to have another one in the group.
 
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