No more fishes?

GTpoker · Sep 6, 2019

Hi everyone,

For the more experienced players I think you might know:

Until what no limit cash level you can find fishes in the tables? Nl10, nl50, nl100, nl500?

In what level you stop seeing fishes?

And which platform have you seen more recreational players?

Thanks in advance,

pentazepam · Sep 6, 2019

Online it's VERY rare to see totally clueless players at 100NL and over. At least that are playing regularly.

That doesn't mean that those limits and higher are unbeatable for very good players - because some will almost always have an edge against the population as long at is human against human (not to many computer programs/bots/solvers that can give advise in real time).

At some site it starts to get, if not tough but hard ,to win big pots at even lower stakes.

For a lot of people from Eastern Europe, Africa, South America and West Asia winning 10 -25 dollars a day is a pretty good income. So the games are MUCH tighter at even 10-50NL compared to when it was mostly Western Europeans and North Americans that played.

So if a site allows players from the parts of the world that I listed above it can get pretty tough at 10NL and above. With more exceptions and maniacs, drunks, gamblers than over 100NL.

So the short answer/guess from me is under 25NL is pretty easy on most sites, but the regulars doesn't make horrible mistakes often anymore. The easy money comes from some recreational players mostly.

GTpoker · Sep 6, 2019

pentazepam said:
Online it's VERY rare to see totally clueless players at 100NL and over. At least that are playing regularly.

That doesn't mean that those limits and higher are unbeatable for very good players - because some will almost always have an edge against the population as long at is human against human (not to many computer programs/bots/solvers that can give advise in real time).

At some site it starts to get, if not tough but hard ,to win big pots at even lower stakes.

For a lot of people from Eastern Europe, Africa, South America and West Asia winning 10 -25 dollars a day is a pretty good income. So the games are MUCH tighter at even 10-50NL compared to when it was mostly Western Europeans and North Americans that played.

So if a site allows players from the parts of the world that I listed above it can get pretty tough at 10NL and above. With more exceptions and maniacs, drunks, gamblers than over 100NL.

So the short answer/guess from me is under 25NL is pretty easy on most sites, but the regulars doesn't make horrible mistakes often anymore. The easy money comes from some recreational players mostly.

Thanks a lot for the answer, very complete.

So the dream of living of Poker in your opinion.. Is more realistic in mtt or cash?

pentazepam · Sep 7, 2019

To be completely honest with you: Unless you are from a country where you can pay rent and food for under 500 dollars a month it's hard to be a professional poker player online.

MTTs are softer and have more recreational players than cash games but the variance is higher since you have to be lucky in the later stages of a tournament to win money that matters.

If you can find a Casino or other place to plat LIVE Cash Games it is probably the best chance to earn money as a pro.

You can still play lower stakes online to train your poker game and become a better player - and of course win a little money.

If you only can play online and have an ordinary job so you are not forced to win at poker every month maybe play tournaments and hope to get lucky. And lower stakes cash for becoming a better player.

Just don't play for more than you can afford to lose. A proper bankroll for tournaments is 100 buy-ins minimum. So if you start with a 100 dollar bankroll don't play higher than 1 dollar MTTs. For cash game a bankroll is often around 25BI for the stake.

Even if I don't recommend freerolls as a good way to learn poker you could use them to build a starting bankroll by just investing your time.

fundiver199 · Sep 8, 2019

Basically online poker is a mature market these days. Its not like, its some hidden secret just waiting 15 years for someone to discover it. According to older pros the games became a lot tougher already back in 2008, when the financial crises hit.

So the idea to find soft games full of huge fish, where the money also matter, is largely an illusion. In tournaments for instance the average quality of play already get significantly better, when you reach buyins like 5-10$. And since the rake remain the same, your winrate will tank, as you move up.

So as pentazepam say, its hardly worth it trying to become an online pro, unless you live in a country, where living costs are low. For the rest of us online poker should be seen as a hobby or a side hustle, even we are serious about it and trying to win.

GTpoker · Sep 12, 2019

pentazepam said:
To be completely honest with you: Unless you are from a country where you can pay rent and food for under 500 dollars a month it's hard to be a professional poker player online.

MTTs are softer and have more recreational players than cash games but the variance is higher since you have to be lucky in the later stages of a tournament to win money that matters.

If you can find a Casino or other place to plat LIVE Cash Games it is probably the best chance to earn money as a pro.

You can still play lower stakes online to train your poker game and become a better player - and of course win a little money.

If you only can play online and have an ordinary job so you are not forced to win at poker every month maybe play tournaments and hope to get lucky. And lower stakes cash for becoming a better player.

Just don't play for more than you can afford to lose. A proper bankroll for tournaments is 100 buy-ins minimum. So if you start with a 100 dollar bankroll don't play higher than 1 dollar MTTs. For cash game a bankroll is often around 25BI for the stake.

Even if I don't recommend freerolls as a good way to learn poker you could use them to build a starting bankroll by just investing your time.

Thanks for taking the time to answer, and giving your sincere opinion!

John A · Sep 13, 2019

fundiver199 said:
Basically online poker is a mature market these days. Its not like, its some hidden secret just waiting 15 years for someone to discover it. According to older pros the games became a lot tougher already back in 2008, when the financial crises hit.

So the idea to find soft games full of huge fish, where the money also matter, is largely an illusion. In tournaments for instance the average quality of play already get significantly better, when you reach buyins like 5-10$. And since the rake remain the same, your winrate will tank, as you move up.

So as pentazepam say, its hardly worth it trying to become an online pro, unless you live in a country, where living costs are low. For the rest of us online poker should be seen as a hobby or a side hustle, even we are serious about it and trying to win.

It was shooting fish in a barrel until black friday. I started playing in 2004. From then until 2008 wasn't much of a difference honestly. But when black friday hit and the US market halted almost over night, the games got way tougher. Then solvers came into play and people started understanding how to play ranges better, and most of the top pros major advantages over the poker field severally shrank.

At least that's how I saw it.

Sidetracked · Sep 17, 2019

Fishes can appear at any level. Back in the pre Black Friday days, Full Tilt used to have cash games with $100,000 buy in and a $1,000 big blind. There was a bad player called Guy Lallibert who would play in those games and the wait lists would be very, very long...

fundiver199 · Sep 18, 2019

John A said:
Then solvers came into play and people started understanding how to play ranges better, and most of the top pros major advantages over the poker field severally shrank.

Not to mention the fact, that AI based software can now beat the best human players at both heads up and 6-max. Maybe in the micros most players will still remain honest and not use illegal software, if nothing else because of the costs and inconveniences involved. But its sort of naive to think, it will not be an issue, if you move up, where the money really matter. So the future for online high stakes games is probably fairly bleak.

pentazepam · Sep 18, 2019

fundiver199 said:
Not to mention the fact, that AI based software can now beat the best human players at both heads up and 6-max. Maybe in the micros most players will still remain honest and not use illegal software, if nothing else because of the costs and inconveniences involved. But its sort of naive to think, it will not be an issue, if you move up, where the money really matter. So the future for online high stakes games is probably fairly bleak.

To add to the problem: for people from big but relative poor countries like Russia, China, brazil and india a dollar a day can be enough to motivate people to play poker as an extra income.

You do what you can to get money even on what we in sweden and Denmark consider micros or even nanos.

https://www.worlddata.info/average-income.php

fundiver199 · Sep 19, 2019

pentazepam said:
To add to the problem: for people from big but relative poor countries like Russia, China, Brazil and India a dollar a day can be enough to motivate people to play poker as an extra income.

You do what you can to get money even on what we in Sweden and Denmark consider micros or even nanos.

This is surely a big part of the problem for online poker. In the beginning it was mostly people from Europe and North America, who played, and pros quickly moved up, which left the micro stakes mainly filled with recreational players and very soft.

Today however you see many professional or at least semi-professional players, who keep grinding the micros for years, because where they live, even a few 100 dollars a month is a significant side income.

And to make matter worse, in many of the countries, which could potentially supply recreational players and money to the ecosystem, the government prevent this, or require individual fenced in sites.

Kolbaskin · Sep 19, 2019

GTpoker said:
In what level you stop seeing fishes?

You never stop seeing fish, they might be at any level. The latest rather bright example is idaniel78 on pokerstars.

GTpoker said:
And which platform have you seen more recreational players?

Any Chinese room, I would say,

swoopdonk · Sep 19, 2019

There are fish everywhere I play. I only play $1/2, 2/4 and $3/6 cash games at the casino though.

williamsc99 · Sep 19, 2019

I think it depends a lot on the games you choose, I believe the bigger or buy smaller the proportion of fish on the table

Search

No more fishes?

GTpoker

Rising Star

pentazepam

Legend

GTpoker

Rising Star

pentazepam

Legend

fundiver199

Legend

GTpoker

Rising Star

John A

Poker Zion Coach

Sidetracked

Legend

fundiver199

Legend

pentazepam

Legend

fundiver199

Legend

Kolbaskin

Rising Star

swoopdonk

Rock Star

williamsc99

Rock Star

About CardsChat

Our Community

Our Site

Follow us

Language