Need help with starting cash game poker.

Thinker_145

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I have been a tournament player for a long time but just started taking cash games more seriously. I bought in with minimum buy in but I immediately realised the serious disadvantage in doing this that its so tough to bluff the big stacks so I moved up to 50% of the maximum buy in.

I still dont like it because of situations like this. I give someone a bad beat and double up, next I get a bad beat and lose everything because the other player was a big stack and had me covered. If I had bought the maximum buy in then I would atleast retain my initial buy in unless I get beat by someone who was already a big winner on the table. Being a big stack I could also take more risks against the smaller stacks and be cautious with those who have me covered. Even with 50% buy in most of the table has me covered.

Now ofcourse one could just get up after doubling up as many seem to do but I dont like the idea of that at all. You just deprive yourself of having a seriously good session.

So am I right in thinking that I should play those tables where I can comfortably afford the maximum buy in and that maximum buy in is the most preferred thing among you guys?

One last thing. The site I am playing on has a maximum buy in of $5 on the $0.02/0.04 tables which are the lowest stakes available. How much bankroll would you suggest I have to start playing that table with $5 buy in? $50 or $100?
 
micromachine

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Buy in for 100bb or more (may as well buy in full for 125bb on your site).

$100 bankroll is a good starting point, $50 isn't enough
 
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bernotas22

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I have been a tournament player for a long time but just started taking cash games more seriously. I bought in with minimum buy in but I immediately realised the serious disadvantage in doing this that its so tough to bluff the big stacks so I moved up to 50% of the maximum buy in.

I still dont like it because of situations like this. I give someone a bad beat and double up, next I get a bad beat and lose everything because the other player was a big stack and had me covered. If I had bought the maximum buy in then I would atleast retain my initial buy in unless I get beat by someone who was already a big winner on the table. Being a big stack I could also take more risks against the smaller stacks and be cautious with those who have me covered. Even with 50% buy in most of the table has me covered.

Now ofcourse one could just get up after doubling up as many seem to do but I dont like the idea of that at all. You just deprive yourself of having a seriously good session.

So am I right in thinking that I should play those tables where I can comfortably afford the maximum buy in and that maximum buy in is the most preferred thing among you guys?

One last thing. The site I am playing on has a maximum buy in of $5 on the $0.02/0.04 tables which are the lowest stakes available. How much bankroll would you suggest I have to start playing that table with $5 buy in? $50 or $100?

50 is enough as long as you manage it right, one thing that is useful if you like to buy in for the minimum can sometimes be to go and do that at first and then if you lose it then buy in for the max, as long as you are a good player and can play it right this can be a deceptive way to not only make up the min buy in you lost but also to trick people into thinking you are an easy target and are on tilt
 
Thinker_145

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50 is enough as long as you manage it right, one thing that is useful if you like to buy in for the minimum can sometimes be to go and do that at first and then if you lose it then buy in for the max, as long as you are a good player and can play it right this can be a deceptive way to not only make up the min buy in you lost but also to trick people into thinking you are an easy target and are on tilt
Well that honestly sounds like a good idea I didnt think about it before, will give it more thought thanks. :)
 
micromachine

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It's not a good idea, just buy in for the max, seriously

And $50 isn't enough, that's only 10 buy-ins.
 
SofaKingCrazy

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What type of player are you? By that I mean are you a recreational player with a budget for playing poker or is this a serious or semi serious attempt to earn an income with poker?

The 100 buy-in rule only applies if your poker account is the only money you have to play with. If it is easy for you to just deposit more than this rule doesn't count vs what's in your account but rather your total budget for poker. (what you are willing to spend)

As far as buying in for min to max it all depends on the type of player you are. There is a strategy for being short stacked and many have been successful at it but if you are starting out and still learning the game then the max buy-in would be best.
 
Thinker_145

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What type of player are you? By that I mean are you a recreational player with a budget for playing poker or is this a serious or semi serious attempt to earn an income with poker?

The 100 buy-in rule only applies if your poker account is the only money you have to play with. If it is easy for you to just deposit more than this rule doesn't count vs what's in your account but rather your total budget for poker. (what you are willing to spend)

As far as buying in for min to max it all depends on the type of player you are. There is a strategy for being short stacked and many have been successful at it but if you are starting out and still learning the game then the max buy-in would be best.
I am very serious about making money in poker. I dont have a total fixed budget but first I want to know if I am actually good at this or not by playing micro stakes poker. If I am able to make good % of profit then I will think about investing more but if not then it will be the end of playing poker as a money making thing. I believe if I am not satisfied with ROI in micro stakes poker then it would be very stupid to try to play higher stakes even if I can afford it.

So basically you can say my question is that by playing $0.02/0.04 stakes with a $5 buy in how much total money should I lose before accepting that I am not that good at cash game poker?

I am not a beginner in poker but a beginner in cash game poker. So you can say I am not "learning" poker but learning the very different dynamics of cash game poker.
 
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bernotas22

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I am very serious about making money in poker. I dont have a total fixed budget but first I want to know if I am actually good at this or not by playing micro stakes poker. If I am able to make good % of profit then I will think about investing more but if not then it will be the end of playing poker as a money making thing. I believe if I am not satisfied with ROI in micro stakes poker then it would be very stupid to try to play higher stakes even if I can afford it.

So basically you can say my question is that by playing $0.02/0.04 stakes with a $5 buy in how much total money should I lose before accepting that I am not that good at cash game poker?

I am not a beginner in poker but a beginner in cash game poker. So you can say I am not "learning" poker but learning the very different dynamics of cash game poker.

need to play lots of hands in cash games to maximize profit, don't think about it like if you lose money you are not good, focus on playing your A game first of all and playing lots and lots of hands, and improving every session, see what works and doesn't work, most importantly don't get frustrated if things are going wrong, also micro stakes usually is full of very tight players more so than higher stakes you can exploit this, any stake is beatable but it takes lots of dedication and starting from the bottom is the best way to test yourself and see how good you are and can possibly be in the future as you progress
 
Thinker_145

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need to play lots of hands in cash games to maximize profit, don't think about it like if you lose money you are not good, focus on playing your A game first of all and playing lots and lots of hands, and improving every session, see what works and doesn't work, most importantly don't get frustrated if things are going wrong, also micro stakes usually is full of very tight players more so than higher stakes you can exploit this, any stake is beatable but it takes lots of dedication and starting from the bottom is the best way to test yourself and see how good you are and can possibly be in the future as you progress
Thanks alot mate. :)
 
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, also micro stakes usually is full of very tight players more so than higher stakess

lol wut??

OP, you seem to have quoted everyone in here except for the guy that's given you good advice lol listen to mm
 
SofaKingCrazy

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I am very serious about making money in poker. I dont have a total fixed budget but first I want to know if I am actually good at this or not by playing micro stakes poker. If I am able to make good % of profit then I will think about investing more but if not then it will be the end of playing poker as a money making thing. I believe if I am not satisfied with ROI in micro stakes poker then it would be very stupid to try to play higher stakes even if I can afford it.

So basically you can say my question is that by playing $0.02/0.04 stakes with a $5 buy in how much total money should I lose before accepting that I am not that good at cash game poker?

I am not a beginner in poker but a beginner in cash game poker. So you can say I am not "learning" poker but learning the very different dynamics of cash game poker.

The great thing about playing with a budget is if you win you won't have to deposit and if you lose just don't deposit, so don't deposit.


There is always a price to pay for an education so expect to lose before you win. How much time are you willing to put into learning? There are tons of videos, threads, and training sessions around to choose from and every winning player had to learn the game first.


Are you saying that you have success with other variants of poker? Is it possible that you can make up your losses with SNGs or MTTs? If this is the case then you could also have a base line and when you go above you can dedicate that money for learning cash rings or you could have a stop loss point where you go back to recoup your losses with the games you are better at.

Even 20 buy-ins can be not enough for learning especially if you play a lot. Study and post hands (wins and losses can be analyzed) maybe even try just railing some tables and see what works from those who are doing it.
 
SofaKingCrazy

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lol wut??

OP, you seem to have quoted everyone in here except for the guy that's given you good advice lol listen to mm

MM's advice is correct but to the point and doesn't elaborate. IMO, I'm not sure if 20 buy-ins are enough for someone "learning" cash rings but it is a good starting point.
 
vinylspiros

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Ok Thinker, im going to try and wrap it up for you so you are no longer confused .

If you are going to be playing cash. for example 10NL where the blinds are 0.5c-0.10c then you must ALWAYS and when i say always i mean ALWAYS buy in with max, meaning 100 big blinds in most cases.


Most of the people use the 25 buy in rule,meaning that you must have 250$(25 buuy ins of 10$ each) minimum to play 10NL.

Even the best of players go on 10Buy in downswings due to bad beats ,tilt,etc. So you must have another 15 behind to make back what you have lost and then some. It's kind of hard to lose more than 10 buy ins in a row. If something like that occurs,then you must definitely move down to lower limits and REALLY WORK on you game cause you might have huge leaks that you are not aware of.


So for the limit you describe in OP being essentially 5NL 2c-5c blinds you need to have a minimum of like 120$ to be comfortable. 125 $ is the norm. ( 25 buy ins)=5*25=125$ ;)


And dont buy in with 50bb because when you hit your monsters you lose value. The only reason you would buy in with half the buy in 50bb,is if your some kind of short stack specialist but that is another chapter and i wont even go there.

Hope this helped.
 
Thinker_145

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lol wut??

OP, you seem to have quoted everyone in here except for the guy that's given you good advice lol listen to mm
Just to make it clear if I dont quote someone doesnt mean that I dont appreciate their input. Its just that at that time I didnt really have anything to add to what he said. :)
 
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Thinker_145

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There is always a price to pay for an education so expect to lose before you win. How much time are you willing to put into learning? There are tons of videos, threads, and training sessions around to choose from and every winning player had to learn the game first.


Are you saying that you have success with other variants of poker? Is it possible that you can make up your losses with SNGs or MTTs? If this is the case then you could also have a base line and when you go above you can dedicate that money for learning cash rings or you could have a stop loss point where you go back to recoup your losses with the games you are better at.
1. I am still a student so I do have plenty of time on my hands to learn the different styles of poker. And I believe this is the right time to do that since my time is not worth too much right now.

2. It would be too early to say that I have "success" but yes I am making profit in the 10 man SNG format and managed to win an MTT but the variance is kind of ridiculous so I am not sure about my future with MTTs. And ofcourse these are all micro stakes tournaments.

What I have really started disliking about SNG's and MTTs is that towards the end it all becomes a ridiculous shove fest its bascially a roll of the dice and its been really putting me off.

I have already played a few cash games from the money I earned from the tournaments and I am break even right now with the cash games. I'll now play cash games after depositing more money as the current amount I have was only meant to be used for micro stakes tournaments so its obviously not enough for $5 buy ins.
 
Thinker_145

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Ok Thinker, im going to try and wrap it up for you so you are no longer confused .

If you are going to be playing cash. for example 10NL where the blinds are 0.5c-0.10c then you must ALWAYS and when i say always i mean ALWAYS buy in with max, meaning 100 big blinds in most cases.


Most of the people use the 25 buy in rule,meaning that you must have 250$(25 buuy ins of 10$ each) minimum to play 10NL.

Even the best of players go on 10Buy in downswings due to bad beats ,tilt,etc. So you must have another 15 behind to make back what you have lost and then some. It's kind of hard to lose more than 10 buy ins in a row. If something like that occurs,then you must definitely move down to lower limits and REALLY WORK on you game cause you might have huge leaks that you are not aware of.


So for the limit you describe in OP being essentially 5NL 2c-5c blinds you need to have a minimum of like 120$ to be comfortable. 125 $ is the norm. ( 25 buy ins)=5*25=125$ ;)


And dont buy in with 50bb because when you hit your monsters you lose value. The only reason you would buy in with half the buy in 50bb,is if your some kind of short stack specialist but that is another chapter and i wont even go there.

Hope this helped.
Thanks for the detailed response. Yes I think this is exactly what I am gonna do. :)
 
Thinker_145

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It's not a good idea, just buy in for the max, seriously

And $50 isn't enough, that's only 10 buy-ins.
I am still kind of intrigued by that idea haha but I guess since most of you are saying its not a good idea so I should listen and do what is more sensible. :)
 
playtheman

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bluffs arent that profitable. keep the for people you have a great read on.

never stack off with 1 pair if possible.
trips on a dry board, slow play them if you get bet into (i made a thread on this)

pretty much it. they rarely bluff.
position position position

im not yet a huge wining player but these are the things i have learned so far
 
Thinker_145

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bluffs arent that profitable. keep the for people you have a great read on.

never stack off with 1 pair if possible.
trips on a dry board, slow play them if you get bet into (i made a thread on this)

pretty much it. they rarely bluff.
position position position

im not yet a huge wining player but these are the things i have learned so far
The last game I played I doubled up with top pair top kicker beating top pair with second best kicker AK vs AQ. So it really kind off depends on the situation I think.

I didnt slow play the hand and we were all in on the flop. Generally I would think about slow playing if I have top 2 pair atleast but that again depends on the situation.

I have so far avoided going broke with QQ vs KK and JJ vs QQ by being cautious before the flop. Ofcourse it helped that over cards came on the board and that there were 3 players in the pot. My point is that I am by no means a trigger happy player that wont fold a big hand. :)

Btw here's a question. I have lost 2 buy-ins with Ace rag hands where someone was on a ridiculous tilt making huge raises every hand and I knew I would be the favorite. I was right both of the times he didnt have a pair or an ace but I lost both the hands. I never do this in a tournament but in a cash game I am like why not? Ultimately you will make profit by lets say playing A6 vs TJ isnt it? I know I know the odds are very close so do you suppose this was really stupid of me to do?
 
vinylspiros

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The last game I played I doubled up with top pair top kicker beating top pair with second best kicker AK vs AQ. So it really kind off depends on the situation I think.

I didnt slow play the hand and we were all in on the flop. Generally I would think about slow playing if I have top 2 pair atleast but that again depends on the situation.

I have so far avoided going broke with QQ vs KK and JJ vs QQ by being cautious before the flop. Ofcourse it helped that over cards came on the board and that there were 3 players in the pot. My point is that I am by no means a trigger happy player that wont fold a big hand. :)

Btw here's a question. I have lost 2 buy-ins with Ace rag hands where someone was on a ridiculous tilt making huge raises every hand and I knew I would be the favorite. I was right both of the times he didnt have a pair or an ace but I lost both the hands. I never do this in a tournament but in a cash game I am like why not? Ultimately you will make profit by lets say playing A6 vs TJ isnt it? I know I know the odds are very close so do you suppose this was really stupid of me to do?

It could have been stupid and it might not have been. It really depends on the scenario.

My advice to you and i suggest you try to keep this in mind always is:

Avoid ACE RAG at all cost. Dont play anything less than AT( if you wanna play the ace)

Tighten up your range as much as you can and you will see that your bankroll will inevitably increase. It's the ace rags and the rest of the junk that we play that keeps us from winning what we would like to be winning.:beer:
 
stately7

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Btw here's a question. I have lost 2 buy-ins with Ace rag hands where someone was on a ridiculous tilt making huge raises every hand and I knew I would be the favorite. I was right both of the times he didnt have a pair or an ace but I lost both the hands. I never do this in a tournament but in a cash game I am like why not? Ultimately you will make profit by lets say playing A6 vs TJ isnt it? I know I know the odds are very close so do you suppose this was really stupid of me to do?

I'm not sure that's a stupid thing to do by any means, but I believe the sage advice generally means not playing Ace rag hands in cash almost all of the time. Sure - when you know your villain is tilting or in maniac mode - you're probably ahead, but waiting for slightly better situations can't hurt either. When he's spewing chips and you get it in with a decent pair or AJ or A10 against his maniac range, there's even less chance of losing your stack there.
 
Thinker_145

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Haha I know ace rag is a bad hand I generally never play it unless the game gets very short handed. Heck I am even very cautious about AT as well since a good player is unlikely to be playing an ace rag either.

I guess I'll try to avoid 55-45 scenarios if I am not committed to the pot.
 
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bernotas22

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It could have been stupid and it might not have been. It really depends on the scenario.

My advice to you and i suggest you try to keep this in mind always is:

Avoid ACE RAG at all cost. Dont play anything less than AT( if you wanna play the ace)

Tighten up your range as much as you can and you will see that your bankroll will inevitably increase. It's the ace rags and the rest of the junk that we play that keeps us from winning what we would like to be winning.:beer:

lol, i play 69 at times and when i flop a full house with it, i get value, not sure what you are trying to say about not playing junk hands that keep you from winning, its how you play the hand not what hands you play
 
vinylspiros

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lol, i play 69 at times and when i flop a full house with it, i get value, not sure what you are trying to say about not playing junk hands that keep you from winning, its how you play the hand not what hands you play


When you play bad hands like 69, the money you will be losing in the long run will be more than the money you will be winning.Period. Of course you will occasionally flop your full-house with 69 or Q3 but they are not good hands to be playing.

If you like playing poker as the "underdog" or if you like to be dominated when you hit your ace, then be my guest. But in general,its not a very good idea.
 
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bernotas22

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When you play bad hands like 69, the money you will be losing in the long run will be more than the money you will be winning.Period. Of course you will occasionally flop your full-house with 69 or Q3 but they are not good hands to be playing.

If you like playing poker as the "underdog" or if you like to be dominated when you hit your ace, then be my guest. But in general,its not a very good idea.

i agree from the viewpoint that it is not a good long term move, but i am saying playing the occasional weak starting hand is good for an aggressive and unpredictable image but also it will keep your range more polarized, plus if you have an extremely tight image it is usually easy to see, of course though learning when to be tight and loose is an art form and skill that takes thousands upon thousands of hands to even begin to learn...you can't just nit it up with strong hands thinking your win rate will just come to you, if you can't mix up your game you will be easy to figure out and that's not something good at the poker table
 
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