Need Help With Buy-In Sizes

I currently have about $317 in my full tilt account.
I am wondering what cash games I am rolled for. I recently started playing cash games and got away from tourney poker for a while but am not quite sure of what stakes to play. I know Chris Ferguson's bankroll management says to play for a max of 5% of your bankroll. So.....$317*.05=$15.90. So playing a .05/.10 table is below my buy-in, but a .10/.25 is above my buy-in since $25 is 7.9% of my bankroll. I feel the .05/.10 tables are a bit of a waste of time. Should I then play .05/.10 deep stacked or ante tables? Thanks for the help

Just play 10nl, it's better to be over rolled than under. Only play deep if you feel you have an edge there and know how to play deep. It's very different to 100BB.

10NL is where you belong, just like LuckyChippy said. Deep tables don't change how much your bankroll should be, but the game is much different deep than it is at normal 100BB stacks, just like shallow tables are a lot different than normal tables. Also, Ferguson's rules only dictate that you have 20 buy-ins at the given level that you're playing, but any real pro(not saying Ferguson isn't a real pro, but FullTilt probably set those rules up) will say that 20 buy-ins is pretty much the bottom of the level that you should set your BRM standards to. 30 buy-ins makes it a little more comfortable, but many pros, including Leatherass, say that he won't play with under 100 buy-ins. You can't be too careful and the more buy-ins you have the more padding there is when variance catches up to you, because it will.

Yes absoluthamm that is why I dropped down. Had one big pot with $20 profit and one big loss with JJ vs AA with -$25 profit. The variance is too big for my BR. Overall at the 25NL I'm about even but thanks for the advice, I'll probably drop down to 10NL starting my next session.

nice BR buddy, you're not gonna grind SNG's with me? :frown:

10NL sounds good to me right now, I wouldn't move up for a while... Maybe at like $1k?

absoluthamm said:

10NL is where you belong, just like LuckyChippy said. Deep tables don't change how much your bankroll should be, but the game is much different deep than it is at normal 100BB stacks, just like shallow tables are a lot different than normal tables. Also, Ferguson's rules only dictate that you have 20 buy-ins at the given level that you're playing, but any real pro(not saying Ferguson isn't a real pro, but FullTilt probably set those rules up) will say that 20 buy-ins is pretty much the bottom of the level that you should set your BRM standards to. 30 buy-ins makes it a little more comfortable, but many pros, including Leatherass, say that he won't play with under 100 buy-ins. You can't be too careful and the more buy-ins you have the more padding there is when variance catches up to you, because it will.

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If you are playing deep tables (250bb) then it changes your BRM rules, you should always be playing based on the max-buyin rather than the blind levels. Basically you should be treating 5c/10c (250bb deep) as nl$25.

bolda3 said:

I feel the .05/.10 tables are a bit of a waste of time.

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I think you are rolled more for the 5NL than the 10NL.

Beat the 5NL for a few weeks before moving up. Mix them together for a bit if you must.

Move up to permanent 10NL at $400. Drop back to 5NL at $350

It's important to only be playing with money you care about, but make sure you can show yourself you are winning at 5NL before calling 5NL or especially 10NL a waste of time with $317

Playing 25NL you're going to cripple your account when you have a run of bad luck or just play bad for a couple days.

I would like to begin this post by saying that while I am a winning player, I am by no means an authority and everyone is free to do as they please.

That being said I feel like there is an unecessary desire to do things exactly like the Pros even at microstakes. While Leatherass won't play with any more than 100 buy ins he is playing for thousands of dollars and his livelihood. BRM is crucial to remain a winning player, but to suggest that 100 BIs is needed to play 5NL or 10NL is ridiculous. Those limits are easily beaten with solid play. If you are an experienced player go right ahead and play the microstakes with 20BIs. While its important to be disciplined there is no need to hold yourself back forever when the money isn't backbreaking.The really strict BRM guidelines are only necessary when you absolutely can't add more money to your account.

TheWall said:

I would like to begin this post by saying that while I am a winning player, I am by no means an authority and everyone is free to do as they please.

That being said I feel like there is an unecessary desire to do things exactly like the Pros even at microstakes. While Leatherass won't play with any more than 100 buy ins he is playing for thousands of dollars and his livelihood. BRM is crucial to remain a winning player, but to suggest that 100 BIs is needed to play 5NL or 10NL is ridiculous. Those limits are easily beaten with solid play. If you are an experienced player go right ahead and play the microstakes with 20BIs. While its important to be disciplined there is no need to hold yourself back forever when the money isn't backbreaking.The really strict BRM guidelines are only necessary when you absolutely can't add more money to your account.

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I think this is good advice. When you play poker as income you should follow a different set of rules than someone playing microstakes with the intention of moving up or remaining at the micros and playing for fun.

Play at a level that is comfortable for you. The last thing you want to think about when faced with a difficult poker decision is how you're playing a hand that you can't afford to lose.

With that said, I'll echo most of the other responses and say that 10NL seems like a reasonable place for you to be at. When you pick up a couple hundred more take some shots at the softest 25NL games maybe.

zek said:

I think you are rolled more for the 5NL than the 10NL.

Beat the 5NL for a few weeks before moving up. Mix them together for a bit if you must.

Move up to permanent 10NL at $400. Drop back to 5NL at $350

It's important to only be playing with money you care about, but make sure you can show yourself you are winning at 5NL before calling 5NL or especially 10NL a waste of time with $317

Playing 25NL you're going to cripple your account when you have a run of bad luck or just play bad for a couple days.

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Lol I think you'd have to be the most cautious person in the world, or a complete poker noob, to play 5nl with a 300 dollar BR.

If you're a competent player, 20 buyins should be enough. 30 is more than enough to play 10nl as far as im concerned... I mean you'd have to have one hell of a bad run to lose 30 buyins to variance. If you lose a 300 dollar Bankroll playing 10NL then you're just not good enough at poker.

bolda3 said:

I currently have about $317 in my full tilt account.
I am wondering what cash games I am rolled for. I recently started playing cash games and got away from tourney poker for a while but am not quite sure of what stakes to play. I know Chris Ferguson's bankroll management says to play for a max of 5% of your bankroll. So.....$317*.05=$15.90. So playing a .05/.10 table is below my buy-in, but a .10/.25 is above my buy-in since $25 is 7.9% of my bankroll. I feel the .05/.10 tables are a bit of a waste of time. Should I then play .05/.10 deep stacked or ante tables? Thanks for the help

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I am in a very simliar situation. Recently I got an e-mail from Full Tilt offering a $ 50.00 reload bonus if I deposited at least that amount using Instant checks, so I did. I now have $100 and sat down yesterday and played a few hundred hands at .01/ .02. The problem is the .01/.02 is so laughable that I know I'm not getting full value for my hands as I could be against ANY 2 cards everyflop. I see players getting their whole stacks in the middle with J8o when they pair their 8. I know overall this is a good thing but I just sometimes don't want to risk my stack with one pair without knowing my opponents. The limit I like playing at is 10NL as I don't see as much of that ridiculously awful play, so I have 10 BuyIns for those stakes. I am wondering if I should try a few sessions at that level and if I do badly drop down to 5NL or possibly 2NL or just grit my teeth and grind it out at .01/ .02 for awhile.

Also on a side note: for a US player who made a depoist on FT using Instant checks what are the withdrawal options available to me?

Thanks

TheWall said:

I would like to begin this post by saying that while I am a winning player, I am by no means an authority and everyone is free to do as they please.

That being said I feel like there is an unecessary desire to do things exactly like the Pros even at microstakes. While Leatherass won't play with any more than 100 buy ins he is playing for thousands of dollars and his livelihood. BRM is crucial to remain a winning player, but to suggest that 100 BIs is needed to play 5NL or 10NL is ridiculous. Those limits are easily beaten with solid play. If you are an experienced player go right ahead and play the microstakes with 20BIs. While its important to be disciplined there is no need to hold yourself back forever when the money isn't backbreaking.The really strict BRM guidelines are only necessary when you absolutely can't add more money to your account.

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True enough -- for those who do not mind putting more money in. Some folks prefer not to re-deposit, and for them, strict BRM is important.

I prefer being over-rolled to under-rolled. I play 10NL with a $300 BR, sometimes, but prefer 5NL. Those days where I lose more than a couple of buyins are easier to take at 5NL. I treasure my equanimity. Playing a little too low than necessary keeps me emotionally stable, as well as financially comfy, when those beats hit and keep hitting. That said, solid play does usually beat these levels.

IMO

I think you should start at 5nl to be honest. It also has nothing to do with how many buy ins you have but everything to do with making sure you can beat one level before moving to the next. 20 BI is fine for a winning player at 2-10nl, but until you have a big enough sample size you really don't know that you are a long term winner. Play 10k at 5nl, and if you are beating it, move up. I play 20k-40k hands a month generally and I've seen some pretty crazy heaters, and some liquid nitrogen cold sessions.

Basically, when I first started playing online I thought I was better than I was because when you haven't played too many hands it's easy to start on the positive side of variance. I thought I was a winning player before I actually was, and in reality I was break even. Think of it as poker quarantine.

If you don't think you can learn anything at 5nl, maybe you're right, but I sure as hell did. Work on your game where you can afford to 4bet shove JJ because you think you have a read. Hell, why not practice hand reading on people whose range is widest.

In a way, your post sums it all up Hisx. I was going to be done posting in here because it had got to the point where people started disregarding the good information and going with the terrible information, and the people that do that can't be helped. Many of these people don't want to stick to 2NL, 5NL, 10NL because they feel like it's playing for peanuts, but that is what it takes to learn. Everyone thinks that as soon as they have one good session where they win 3 buy-ins that they can all of the sudden beat the game and they should move up, but it's unrealistic. I personally think that even 10K hands isn't much of a sample size to prove that you are capable at beating a given level, but I'm not saying that there is any specific sample size that you should look at to find that info out because it will more than likely vary for everyone.

A lot of you guys above feel like just because you are playing for entertainment that you don't have to stick to any kind of a BRM system... well if you are just playing for entertainment, then why are you even posting here? The only reason that I can see someone posting on a forum about poker would be to gain knowledge to become better at it, correct? Well then why wouldn't you accept the knowledge of something as important as keeping your bankroll in tact. I don't know about you guys, but I am someone who has never deposited a penny into my current bankroll, and in my whole online poker career has only deposited $20 on a site that no longer exists(at least not in the form it once was) and I've built that nothing up to over $2000. It's not that I can't afford to deposit over and over, I have plenty that I could blow away if I wanted, but why would you want to play poker expecting to have to redeposit when you could just follow something, learn from your (probably huge) mistakes, learn the game, and save money in the long run? I'm not saying that you have to have 100 buy-ins like Leatherass talks about, I was just using that as a point that the vast majority of beginning players(yes that is all of you guys) are playing way outside of your bankroll limits, and you are the types of players that the sharks flock to...

LuckyChippy said:

Just play 10nl, it's better to be over rolled than under. Only play deep if you feel you have an edge there and know how to play deep. It's very different to 100BB.

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This is a good advice.

the hamm is on it. You're rolled for 10nl. Grind out 25k hands at least and see where you're at. If at any point you dip below 20 BI drop to 5nl. 10nl is a great place to learn the fundamentals.
FWIW I started at 10nl with 20 BIs and have put in 40k hands. Im rolled for 25nl now but am going to put in another 10k-15k hands before moving up.

Miksa13 said:

This is a good advice.

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No, it's terrible advice. If they can't play a few weeks and a couple 10K's of hands profitably at 5NL they should not be moving up to 10NL. One of the worst things you can no, besides logging in when you are all beer'ed up, is to be playing above your limits.

kadafi said:

Lol I think you'd have to be the most cautious person in the world, or a complete poker noob, to play 5nl with a 300 dollar BR.

If you're a competent player, 20 buyins should be enough. 30 is more than enough to play 10nl as far as im concerned...

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They said they are new to cash games. Let them get their footing and make their mistakes cheap before moving up. Sure, if you are a more experienced player that is reloading after previously cashing out sure $300 is fine for 10NL but if you are new to cash start smaller and work your way up from there.

fx20736 said:

I am in a very simliar situation. Recently I got an e-mail from Full Tilt offering a $ 50.00 reload bonus if I deposited at least that amount using Instant checks, so I did. I now have $100 and sat down yesterday and played a few hundred hands at .01/ .02. The problem is the .01/.02 is so laughable that I know I'm not getting full value for my hands as I could be against ANY 2 cards everyflop.

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Skip 2NL cash and $1 SNG's. It's next to impossible to beat the frustration and rake down there. I think it's best to add a little bit more like you did and start at 5NL and $2 SNG's. Don't play to clear the bonus. Play your best game when you are feeling god and built your account. The bonus is that, a reward that supplements good play, not a goal that must be cleared.

zek said:

No, it's terrible advice. If they can't play a few weeks and a couple 10K's of hands profitably at 5NL they should not be moving up to 10NL. One of the worst things you can no, besides logging in when you are all beer'ed up, is to be playing above your limits.

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I'm sorry but I'm unsure how suggesting playing 10nl with 31 buy-ins is terrible advice? He doesn't know what level he can beat but he has at least played poker before. It isn't like he said he had a heater at 5nl, or lost at 5nl or something. He should play 10nl, if he loses then sure move down, but playing 5nl with 60 buy-ins is just stupid. He will know very quickly whether he feels outplayed at 10nl or not. Stop being such a nit.

Also your suggestion that 5nl is more easily beaten than 2nl is a bit strange. If he's new to cash games then following your logic he should just play 2nl? The lowest level where he can learn and move up playing 10k hands at each level?


Just play 10nl OP, if you feel outplayed or lose say 5-buy-ins pretty quick then drop down. Starting at 5nl though is silly.

LuckyChippy said:

Also your suggestion that 5nl is more easily beaten than 2nl is a bit strange. If he's new to cash games then following your logic he should just play 2nl? The lowest level where he can learn and move up playing 10k hands at each level?

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The required time, higher rake, and probable frustration isn't worth it.

The lowest of levels I think are only worth it to learn what beats what, basics of position mattering, making newbie mistakes cheap, etc.

If you've been playing some form of poker and got all that then start at 5NL.

LuckyChippy said:

Just play 10nl OP, if you feel outplayed or lose say 5-buy-ins pretty quick then drop down. Starting at 5nl though is silly.

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Feel free to disagree, but also post when you think he should drop back.

Can we agree that if they lose 5+ buyins and reach $250 they should drop down to 5NL?

Doesn't matter if you want to call it swings, bad beats, standard variance, whatever.

The point is to protect what's left of the bankroll regardless of how we got there.

I think you made my point in another thread :

I have HEM, Skype, a ~$200 bankroll currently playing 10nl. Have been a loser at previous attempts at the limit due to lots of spazzes for stacks, but over a very small recent sample, I am winning though marginally.

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bolda3, start with 5NL (rush is better than multi tables), and if you get to $400 move up to $10 NL and $5 SNG's.

You can start to mix in 25NL when above $750.

I like to start mixing in the next limit while I have at least 30bi's and move up when I have 40bi's.

It's possible this makes less and less sense the higher you get, dunno, ask the pros, but for turning little into the $1000-$2000 bankroll range I can speak from experience many times over.

That's about where I break down and something dumb happens (some beers, a couple 200NL buyins, and BOOM, KaBlamo! )

Listen, trust me...

Some of the advice is equivalent to this IMO.

I have 20k to invest. I've owned a few stocks before. Should I make a mock stock portfolio to try out my skills, and to make sure I understand how the market works, or should I put it right into the market?

A: No man, you're way over rolled for a mock portfolio. If you lose 3k you can go make a mock portfolio. What if you miss out on a stack of profit because you missed a move.

The profit at 5nl and 10nl will not allow you to quit your job. In the long run, those who make money will be the ones that move past 10nl. If you go play 10nl you may do well and double your roll. You could also lose a chunk of it, damage your confidence, and lengthen the amount of hands you eventually put in before you advance (That was me. I had "don't fold high over pairs to donkeys with > 7 SPR" syndrome). If you double the roll on a heater, you still won't be ready for 25nl anytime soon. Learn to hit the 75mph fastballs before you try the 85mph fastballs.

Also, even if you can beat both, you may have a better overall hourly profit at 5nl than 10nl if you add additional tables assuming you can handle it. I believe max buy in at 5nl on Stars is $12.50.

Hisx1ncPS said:

I have 20k to invest. I've owned a few stocks before. Should I make a mock stock portfolio to try out my skills, and to make sure I understand how the market works, or should I put it right into the market?

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Wrong either way. Buy-in incrementally, preferably while stocks you wanted are on their way down.

LuckyChippy said:

Just play 10nl OP, if you feel outplayed or lose say 5-buy-ins pretty quick then drop down. Starting at 5nl though is silly.

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i'm going to go with chippy on this one Zek. If OP knows he's worse than everyone at the table i'm sure he'll move down. 10nl and 5nl are NOT much different so why not play something that offers more money and that he's well rolled for to start?