Moving from 2NL to 5NL....

PNJs_dad

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How do you know when to move from 2NL to 5NL? How many buy-ins would I need to make the move. I mean I'm still very raw playing cash games. But I didn't know if I need more experience to move or just the money. Thanks!
 
Olddog21

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Big Blinds!

I beleive some sites do have mininmum BB's ...but those numbers changed recently! I THINK it's 40 big blind min. Sorry could not be of more help....GOOD LUCK:) :) :)
 
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For proper bankroll management you will probably want to wait until you have about $100 in your account to play 5NL
 
brank

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Bankroll management only applies if you're a winning player, other wise its just delaying the inevitable. If you are beating 2nl then move up to 5nl. If you are a break even player with rakeback move up. The games are the same and should be played the same. Table selection FTW.
 
Theblueduce

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Take a shot...and move up...You will know if you feel comfortable or not. Good luck
 
mauikisi

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$100 is fine, but only if you are a constant winning player on NL2
 
ericgarner118

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Are you winning player at 2NL? Do you think you have a grasp of the game? Do you have about $100 in your BR? If the answer to all three of these questions is "yes" then it's time to move up. 2Nl and 5NL are played essentially the same. There's not much of a skill difference and if you are winning at 2nl and have the BR to move up then I'd highly recommend doing it.
 
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fx20736

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Are you winning player at 2NL? Do you think you have a grasp of the game? Do you have about $100 in your BR? If the answer to all three of these questions is "yes" then it's time to move up. 2Nl and 5NL are played essentially the same. There's not much of a skill difference and if you are winning at 2nl and have the BR to move up then I'd highly recommend doing it.

5nl is slightly more aggressive than 2nl. I have around 40k hands at both levels and 2nl is definitely a little softer.

As far as BRM goes everyone has a different risk threshold. My BR is $ 113 (57 BI) for 2nl. On Oct 7 it was $ 18 after I had lost $ 158 playing 5nl, which thankfully included $95 in bonuses from Full Tilt. Over the past month I built it back up and now I am frankly scared to move back up. I tried several hundred hands last night but felt tense and nervous and worried about the money, even though I ended up losing only 20bb for the session I just don't feel ready to move back up so this morning I went back to 2nl and beat the game for 13BB/ 100 ($ 11.14) today. I just don't ever think about the money when I am playing 2nl.

As far as a grasp of the game I still lack much confidence. I just don't think I make the best decisions postflop. Some decisions like pot odds to draw to a flush are pretty easy but reading the two pair, straight & full house boards sometimes has me lost, especially when I have 2nd Full House or 2nd nut straight or top and bottom pair. I also struggle with hands like 99 on a JT board where the turn gives me a gutshot, I just feel paralyzed.

Anyway, I do want to move up eventually I just want a little more experience and a slightly larger bankroll.
 
bgomez89

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I agree with most of the others. If you have at least 100 in your account and you're beating 2nl over a good sample size, take a shot at 5nl and see how you feel. If you want you can send me your HH from 5nl and I can take a look at it for you and give you my input
 
Michael69

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100 buy ins definitely. you can feel comfortable playing, and you have some padding for bad runs.
 
Pascal-lf

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I agree with most of the others. If you have at least 100 in your account and you're beating 2nl over a good sample size, take a shot at 5nl and see how you feel. If you want you can send me your HH from 5nl and I can take a look at it for you and give you my input

100 buy ins definitely. you can feel comfortable playing, and you have some padding for bad runs.

100 Buy ins Imo;)

Are you serious?

Start taking shots at 20BI (mix tables into your 2NL tables or play just 1 or 2 tables of 5NL), move up at 25BI.

5nl is slightly more aggressive than 2nl. I have around 40k hands at both levels and 2nl is definitely a little softer.

As far as BRM goes everyone has a different risk threshold. My BR is $ 113 (57 BI) for 2nl. On Oct 7 it was $ 18 after I had lost $ 158 playing 5nl, which thankfully included $95 in bonuses from Full Tilt. Over the past month I built it back up and now I am frankly scared to move back up. I tried several hundred hands last night but felt tense and nervous and worried about the money, even though I ended up losing only 20bb for the session I just don't feel ready to move back up so this morning I went back to 2nl and beat the game for 13BB/ 100 ($ 11.14) today. I just don't ever think about the money when I am playing 2nl.

As far as a grasp of the game I still lack much confidence. I just don't think I make the best decisions postflop. Some decisions like pot odds to draw to a flush are pretty easy but reading the two pair, straight & full house boards sometimes has me lost, especially when I have 2nd Full House or 2nd nut straight or top and bottom pair. I also struggle with hands like 99 on a JT board where the turn gives me a gutshot, I just feel paralyzed.

Anyway, I do want to move up eventually I just want a little more experience and a slightly larger bankroll.

The difference between 2NL and 5NL is very very little. There are still tons of fish and no good regulars (well, maybe 1 or 2 at most, but they are crazy like chip-star was). Sounds like you have an issue with your confidence - work on your game more by reading guides and watching videos.

Don't get stuck at microstakes - the rake is too big. Learn the game, improve, make sure you are comfortable and beating it over a reasonable sample, make sure you're rolled; then move up :)
 
ALL IN CLUBS

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Yes, i would say no difference in the game between .02 and .05 but if you get stuck in a session for 4 buy-ins thats $20.00 if you get stuck in a .02 session thats $8.00 . Stuck 20 buy-ins in a few sessons does that happen to good players?/ Hell yes it happens...
 
soccerrunner8098

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As a general rule of proper br management, you should always have at least 20x the buy in for a tournament in your br. For example, if you want to play in the 5nl you should have at least 100 in your bankroll
 
bgomez89

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Pascal i meant 100 dollars. I'm strongly against this 100BI suggestion as you can see on fx's dropping down to 2nl thread. Building 500 dollars from just 2nl is dumb IMO
 
WVHillbilly

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Yes, i would say no difference in the game between .02 and .05 but if you get stuck in a session for 4 buy-ins thats $20.00 if you get stuck in a .02 session thats $8.00 . Stuck 20 buy-ins in a few sessons does that happen to good players?/ Hell yes it happens...

Hey guess what at 10nl that's $40 and at 100nl that's $400! SFW? If you can't separate your BR from actual money you're going to have a very hard time moving up ever.
 
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fx20736

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Are you serious?

Start taking shots at 20BI (mix tables into your 2NL tables or play just 1 or 2 tables of 5NL), move up at 25BI.



The difference between 2NL and 5NL is very very little. There are still tons of fish and no good regulars (well, maybe 1 or 2 at most, but they are crazy like chip-star was). Sounds like you have an issue with your confidence - work on your game more by reading guides and watching videos.

Don't get stuck at microstakes - the rake is too big. Learn the game, improve, make sure you are comfortable and beating it over a reasonable sample, make sure you're rolled; then move up :)

yes. And I still maintain that there is a difference in aggression between 2nl & 5nl. Perhaps if you play 10 or 25nl you might not see the difference but having split 90k hands about equally I can tell you that 3betting and re-raising c-bets is a little more prevalent at 5 than at 2.

As far as regs go, there are several who show up at the tables here that I have a thousand or more hands on.


Hey guess what at 10nl that's $40 and at 100nl that's $400! SFW? If you can't separate your BR from actual money you're going to have a very hard time moving up ever.

Your point is valid, the actual dollar amount in play is small but I kind of feel that my BR has a ton of sweat equity in it and when I look at it I know how much I deposited and where I am at now. By taking a bigger risk and potentially needing to re-deposit I would feel like I was a bit of a failure. I know this sounds overly nitty but for me, the actual deposit amount I have put on Full Tilt this time around is $ 150 and my BR is now $ 118 so the way I look at it, I spent $ 32 for a 90k hand education in poker, a pretty good deal in my estimation. (I don't count Full Tilt bonuses in my wins or losses-maybe some think I should but that money didn't come from by bank account so I don't count it). I can be break even in a month, hopefully and then I would start 2011 with a chance to be a winning poker player with 100k hands of training and then I could say, time to move up. My confidence is defintely an issue and as you can see my by HA posts I still need a lot of work in my postflop play. The fact that I have been beating 2nl for 4BB/100 doesn't change that as in the valley of the blind people the one eyed man is King. I want to get more automatic in my mental algorithims when I get called or raised on the flop and really be better at putting villains on a range of hands and then knowing my equity against that range and then making the best possible decision. As always,WV I value your opinion very highly. :)
 
Pascal-lf

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Perhaps if you play 10 or 25nl you might not see the difference but having split 90k hands about equally I can tell you that 3betting and re-raising c-bets is a little more prevalent at 5 than at 2.

I played 25k hands of each when moving up and saw very little difference :)

As far as regs go, there are several who show up at the tables here that I have a thousand or more hands on.

There's a difference between good regs and bad regs - bad regs play micros because they aren't good enough to move up and make profit. They are the majority of the regs at low stkakes :)

[/quote]

Yes, i would say no difference in the game between .02 and .05 but if you get stuck in a session for 4 buy-ins thats $20.00 if you get stuck in a .02 session thats $8.00 . Stuck 20 buy-ins in a few sessons does that happen to good players?/ Hell yes it happens...

The whole idea of BRM is to move down - you don't move up and then never move back down again. You set a stop limit so if you dropped to say 15BI for 5NL you go back to 2NL and grind it back up so you can take another shot.
 
PNJs_dad

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Thanks for the info guys. I do think 100 BI would be too much. If I can grind at 2NL till i'm at $500 then I'm probably losing money(since I could be at 5NL instead) I'll probably wait till about 25 BI or so. Thanks. One last ?....should I keep my BR seperate for tourney/SnG/Cash play or what? Just curious what others do. Thanks
 
Pascal-lf

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Do you have a game you focus primarily on or not?
 
sheesho

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anywhere from 30-100 buy-ins is good so 150 is good
 
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I think there is a misconception about proper Bankroll management that equates a certain number of buy-ins as the only variable in the equation. Whether you have 10,20,50,100 or 200 buy-ins the overlooked questions are; how easily could I replace this money? How would I feel about losing it all? For a single person making great money who played live 1/2 NLHE at the local casino the idea of needing several thousand dollars in a BR would seem absurd. To a professional poker player playing 5/10 at the same casino having a roll under $ 10,000 might make him or her squeamish, especially if he was trying to support a family doing it.

There are those who say that once you have a nice winrate over a decent sample that the logical thing to do is to move up. However ask several players the two questions above; how easily could you replace the money and how would you feel about losing it,and you will probably get several different responses.

For me personally, a $ 100 bankroll is significant. I have two school aged kids, Holidays are coming,etc. If I were to lose it all I would probably not replace it until sometime in January (iPod touch for my son, laptop for my daughter under the tree). When I play 5nl I think about my bankroll with every hand. When I play 2nl I don't think about it at all. With 2nl I have a track record of 4+BB/ 100 in a sample around 50k hands. With 5nl I have lost double that dollar amount and an equally negative BB/100 rate. I tried 2500 hands at 5nl this week and and lost a little over 3 buy-ins with a BB/100 of -6.42/100. Until this morning I had 8400 hands at 2nl at 2.19 BB/100 which is actually my worst week in the past month but still winning.

When I decided to move up this week, I felt like I had something to prove. I was impatient and I wanted to win. I had a few bad beats in there and I was playing scared as I thought, if I go down 2 BI for the session that's 8-10% of my bankroll. This lethal cocktail put me on tilt. When I hit my saturation point I got off the tables. I was very disappointed in myself for playing poorly and not having faith in EV. I should have taken the rest of the day off but I figured I could make it up easily on home turf. Instead I spazzed off 3 1/2 Bi at 2nl in an hour.

I am done with the soap opera of moving up for now. 20 BI is just not enough for me and I know All In Clubs shares this view. The truth is; I still suck at Poker. I win at 2nl because the average player there sucks even worse. Fortunately the wrecking ball only smashed % 15 of my bankroll and I am still a little over a hundred dollars.

I know that I will not be playing 2nl forever. I want to move up, I want to succeed. I'm just not ready yet. At this point, regardless of my winrate I won't move up until the New Year at the earliest.

Then you'll all get a postcard from fx that says: "Weather's great at 5nl. Come and join me".

until then I will be sliding on my belly with my tail between my legs.

:icon_sunn
 
WVHillbilly

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I think there is a misconception about proper Bankroll management that equates a certain number of buy-ins as the only variable in the equation. Whether you have 10,20,50,100 or 200 buy-ins the overlooked questions are; how easily could I replace this money? How would I feel about losing it all? For a single person making great money who played live 1/2 NLHE at the local casino the idea of needing several thousand dollars in a BR would seem absurd. To a professional poker player playing 5/10 at the same casino having a roll under $ 10,000 might make him or her squeamish, especially if he was trying to support a family doing it.

There are those who say that once you have a nice winrate over a decent sample that the logical thing to do is to move up. However ask several players the two questions above; how easily could you replace the money and how would you feel about losing it,and you will probably get several different responses.

For me personally, a $ 100 bankroll is significant. I have two school aged kids, Holidays are coming,etc. If I were to lose it all I would probably not replace it until sometime in January (iPod touch for my son, laptop for my daughter under the tree). When I play 5nl I think about my bankroll with every hand. When I play 2nl I don't think about it at all. With 2nl I have a track record of 4+BB/ 100 in a sample around 50k hands. With 5nl I have lost double that dollar amount and an equally negative BB/100 rate. I tried 2500 hands at 5nl this week and and lost a little over 3 buy-ins with a BB/100 of -6.42/100. Until this morning I had 8400 hands at 2nl at 2.19 BB/100 which is actually my worst week in the past month but still winning.

When I decided to move up this week, I felt like I had something to prove. I was impatient and I wanted to win. I had a few bad beats in there and I was playing scared as I thought, if I go down 2 BI for the session that's 8-10% of my bankroll. This lethal cocktail put me on tilt. When I hit my saturation point I got off the tables. I was very disappointed in myself for playing poorly and not having faith in EV. I should have taken the rest of the day off but I figured I could make it up easily on home turf. Instead I spazzed off 3 1/2 Bi at 2nl in an hour.

I am done with the soap opera of moving up for now. 20 BI is just not enough for me and I know All In Clubs shares this view. The truth is; I still suck at Poker. I win at 2nl because the average player there sucks even worse. Fortunately the wrecking ball only smashed % 15 of my bankroll and I am still a little over a hundred dollars.

I know that I will not be playing 2nl forever. I want to move up, I want to succeed. I'm just not ready yet. At this point, regardless of my winrate I won't move up until the New Year at the earliest.

Then you'll all get a postcard from fx that says: "Weather's great at 5nl. Come and join me".

until then I will be sliding on my belly with my tail between my legs.

:icon_sunn

All this is fine as long as you realize you're just delaying your development / advancement and not solving the problem.
 
vanquish

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grunch: the more you glorify moving up, the harder it will be for you to do so comfortably
 
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this might be a dumb question but if you have KK in 5 nl and someone raises all in preflop should you pretty much always call with it? it seems like i always run into aces with my kings but when i have aces i can never run into lower pkts and when i do they seem to hit a set its pretty frustrating and i lose most of my br this way
 
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