Middle pair dilemma . . .

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clockerfields

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Casino $1 $2, new table. I'm dealt 8c7c in cutoff seat, good player (tight aggressive) in middle position. Both of us have around $300. He bets $10 pre flop and gets three callers, including me. flop is 8h 7d 2d. Villian bets out $30, I call (2 pair), everyone else drops . Turn comes Qs. Villian bets out $75, I call. River is 3d, villian checks, I think about bluffing with the three diamonds on board, but only call, thinking my 2 pairs are probably good. He flips over his 2 pair - Queens & 8's (for the win). In retrospect, I guess if should have raised his flop bet. How do you guys handle middle pairs??
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

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You might want to revisit your assessment of the supposedly TAG player who opened for 5x with Q8 in MP.

That said, why would you not raise his flop bet with top two on a wet board? On this particular hand, you might end up losing more money because he hits the Q, but that doesn't affect whether raising or calling is the better play.
 
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BlueNowhere

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Arjonius said:
You might want to revisit your assessment of the supposedly TAG player who opened for 5x with Q8 in MP.

That said, why would you not raise his flop bet with top two on a wet board? On this particular hand, you might end up losing more money because he hits the Q, but that doesn't affect whether raising or calling is the better play.
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All of this. I'm at a loss as to how people arrive at someone is a TAG player.
Flop is such an obvious raise.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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clockerfields said:
Casino $1 $2, new table. I'm dealt 8c7c in cutoff seat, good player (tight aggressive) in middle position. Both of us have around $300. He bets $10 pre flop and gets three callers, including me. flop is 8h 7d 2d. Villian bets out $30, I call (2 pair), everyone else drops . Turn comes Qs. Villian bets out $75, I call. River is 3d, villian checks, I think about bluffing with the three diamonds on board, but only call, thinking my 2 pairs are probably good. He flips over his 2 pair - Queens & 8's (for the win). In retrospect, I guess if should have raised his flop bet. How do you guys handle middle pairs??
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lol live players!

Anyway, raise flop and as played bet the river BUT not as a bluff! Bet the river for value. Why? Well if he really is a tight player he'll have quite a few decent pairs by the river and since you beat single pairs and he's always going to check/call because live players are terrible and you like money (you do like money right?)...
 
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clockerfields

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I know I'm learning, respect the student; I should have raised on the flop. For my understanding, what if the flop were Q 8 7 . . . I flopped 2 pair and so did he. He bets out $30 on the flop; do I raise here also for info?????
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

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dont raise for info.

ever.

like ever ever. (forever ever?)

you raise for value or as a bluff, thats it.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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clockerfields said:
I know I'm learning, respect the student; I should have raised on the flop. For my understanding, what if the flop were Q 8 7 . . . I flopped 2 pair and so did he. He bets out $30 on the flop; do I raise here also for info?????
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NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! You should NEVER EVER EVER raise for info. You should raise that flop for value. You don't know he has Q8. He has a range.

Let's say it's 22+,A5s+,K6s+,Q7s+,J8s+,T9s,A8o+,K9o+,Q9o+,JTo (~25% range so not very tight). Against that range you have ~85% equity. Against a realistic range that continues if you raise the flop (all of his flush draws, straight draws, sets, overpairs, 2 pair hands) you have about 66% equity. That's the only information you need.
 
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