Microstakes Cash: Ways to Improve

honeycrush

honeycrush

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I've been playing for a while now and playing 10nl for the last couple of months. I've also been reviewing hand histories, making notes, reading books, watching videos and following the Poker Zion Roots course. I think I've improved a bit but my win-rate is very very small - just about breakeven.

One of the things I do is try to practise a concept during the week - eg, playing OOP or playing draws. But I find that by doing so I make more mistakes. I'm trying to put new ideas into practice and don't always make the right decisions. Do you more experienced players think this is a valuable thing to do in the long run while I am playing such low stakes as I will learn faster or do you think I should stick to playing tight ABC poker?

I call too much IP as a way to practise post flop play and hand reading but obviously I am not very good yet. My stats look very weird - I am winning at about 35bb/100 in EP/MP/CO but losing at -7bb/100 on the BTN! :eek: I am always cold calling on the button with marginal hands to get experience of playing IP but suck at it. Probably calling too much in BB too. Seems like chicken and egg - how can I learn and get better at post flop if I play really tight and don't get into marginal spots?
 
Cafeman

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6max or FR? What is your VPIP/PFR? Tight is OK, but calling too much just to use your positional advantage is definitely not optimal vs people who make hands and won't fold. You could try 3betting regs more IP, cos the always love that ;)

From what you've said it sounds like you're doing a lot to try to improve but then purposefully handicapping yourself. Probably test out new things when you realize lots of people are unbalanced in that spot, or you notice that it seems to work pretty well. IMO there's no point trying out stuff that you have no concrete reason to try. For example, try out a 4bet bluff with blockers vs a reg who has a 3bet% of 16 OTB but folds to 3bets/4bets reasonably. Try that before cold calling the BTN 40% :D
 
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ScottishMatt

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I did the same as you at one point. Taking actions outside my normal strategy in order to try and gain more experience. You really don't need to be doing that, it's not like your going to be playing 400NL next week and have to get the experience in. Just play a set strategy and make small deviations from it when justified. You only need to take small steps away from your winning strategy in order to see what works and what doesn't. Like, for example I make a point to never limp however if there have been 3 limps from passive-fish-spewers before me then I'll limp the BTN with a wide range as opposed to only isolating/folding. Only because I feel it will be worth my while if I connect hard. So I would just stick to what you know and alter your plan in-game every now and then if you feel justified in doing so.

We also have a Skype chat that most of the cash guys hangout in, most of it isn't poker talk however if you post a hand you'll normally get replies. It's also an ideal place to set up a sweat if you want one. Just message me or one of the regulars with your Skype name if you want in.
 
honeycrush

honeycrush

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6max or FR? What is your VPIP/PFR? Tight is OK, but calling too much just to use your positional advantage is definitely not optimal vs people who make hands and won't fold. You could try 3betting regs more IP, cos the always love that ;)

From what you've said it sounds like you're doing a lot to try to improve but then purposefully handicapping yourself. Probably test out new things when you realize lots of people are unbalanced in that spot, or you notice that it seems to work pretty well. IMO there's no point trying out stuff that you have no concrete reason to try. For example, try out a 4bet bluff with blockers vs a reg who has a 3bet% of 16 OTB but folds to 3bets/4bets reasonably. Try that before cold calling the BTN 40% :D

Thanks Cafeman. I'm playing 6max at the moment although I started out with FR. Moved to 6max after playing for a while at 5nl and then stayed there when I moved to 10nl. My BR is around $400 atm.

Screenie below of mystats. VPIP/PFR is skewed because of all those loose calls in LP. It's only a small sample but I think it highlights my problem.

From your reply also sounds like I need to sort out my HUD. I only have the very basic stats plus cbet/fold to cbet - 3bet/fold to 3bet - steal/fold to steal.

My next lesson is 3bets and 4bets so after watching that video I will try what you suggest. :) Thanks again!
 

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honeycrush

honeycrush

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I did the same as you at one point. Taking actions outside my normal strategy in order to try and gain more experience. You really don't need to be doing that, it's not like your going to be playing 400NL next week and have to get the experience in. Just play a set strategy and make small deviations from it when justified. You only need to take small steps away from your winning strategy in order to see what works and what doesn't. Like, for example I make a point to never limp however if there have been 3 limps from passive-fish-spewers before me then I'll limp the BTN with a wide range as opposed to only isolating/folding. Only because I feel it will be worth my while if I connect hard. So I would just stick to what you know and alter your plan in-game every now and then if you feel justified in doing so.

We also have a Skype chat that most of the cash guys hangout in, most of it isn't poker talk however if you post a hand you'll normally get replies. It's also an ideal place to set up a sweat if you want one. Just message me or one of the regulars with your Skype name if you want in.

Thanks ScottishMatt. Glad to know I'm not the only one! I will PM you my skype details. Thanks! :)
 
Cafeman

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I'm no db stats guy, but your WTSD seems a little high for such a low W$SD. What do you think is going on? Calling down too much or something? Could be a function of those preflop calls you've been making I guess.

My HUD is:-

VPIP / PFR / AF / Donk / Hands
FTS / 3bet / Sqz / F3bet / 4bet
RFI UTG / MP / CO / BTN / SB
Fcbet / Tcbet / Rcbet / FFcbet / FTcbet / FRcbet

However, I also pull up my various pop ups for other things like BvB, Bet vs Missed cbet, x/r cbet, etc..

And just to be clear, I only mentioned 4bet bluffing from the pov of things that we need never do and still beat the micros. Just something to think about before trying out other things that may end up being even worse.

Oh and while you're not crushing, you are 3BIs up over 13k hands, which is a good deal better than some, so you're probably almost on the right track I reckon.
 
honeycrush

honeycrush

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I'm no db stats guy, but your WTSD seems a little high for such a low W$SD. What do you think is going on? Calling down too much or something? Could be a function of those preflop calls you've been making I guess.

My HUD is:-

VPIP / PFR / AF / Donk / Hands
FTS / 3bet / Sqz / F3bet / 4bet
RFI UTG / MP / CO / BTN / SB
Fcbet / Tcbet / Rcbet / FFcbet / FTcbet / FRcbet

However, I also pull up my various pop ups for other things like BvB, Bet vs Missed cbet, x/r cbet, etc..

And just to be clear, I only mentioned 4bet bluffing from the pov of things that we need never do and still beat the micros. Just something to think about before trying out other things that may end up being even worse.

Oh and while you're not crushing, you are 3BIs up over 13k hands, which is a good deal better than some, so you're probably almost on the right track I reckon.

Thanks for the HUD config. Looks really good. I took a lot of time setting mine up before - but then a new computer meant I lost the setting and had to start from scratch so I need to fix that.

You're right - I'm calling/floating way too much. My redline is positive and 2BI's of my profit is from non-showdown winnings. Something else I need to fix.

Okay - I get it now about the 4bet stuff. I haven't been 4betting apart from hands I'm willing to shove pre. Probably need to filter out some of the stuff I'm learning as it's not applicable to my current level. And yes, things could be worse. At least at the moment I'm not losing! :)
 
Aleksei

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Don't look for thin value unless you can make very good profit off it. The biggest leak good lags have is they get into too many 51/49 spots where you're actually losing money on the net because of rake.
 
rocket316

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I am winning at about 35bb/100 in EP/MP/CO but losing at -7bb/100 on the BTN!

This could just be down to variance - but your low BTN PFR could be the problem here. Most of the value of the BTN in 6max will come taking down the blinds when its folded to you. Look at your raise first in (RFI) statistic by position and make sure on the BTN its nice and big - like at least 40-50%. Not stealing the blinds enough is a huge leak but also very easy to fix.
 
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Henreiman

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Tighten up or widen your 3 bet range on the button. Fold more buttons to EP raises, 3 bet polarized ranges in MP, flat merged ranges. If those concepts don't really make sense (which they often don't at microstakes, not because of you but because your opponents aren't that sophisticated) then I'd advocate simply tightening up to raises and stealing more.
 
honeycrush

honeycrush

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Don't look for thin value unless you can make very good profit off it. The biggest leak good lags have is they get into too many 51/49 spots where you're actually losing money on the net because of rake.

Well, the concept I've been working on most recently is "value bets" so you could be right!

This could just be down to variance - but your low BTN PFR could be the problem here. Most of the value of the BTN in 6max will come taking down the blinds when its folded to you. Look at your raise first in (RFI) statistic by position and make sure on the BTN its nice and big - like at least 40-50%. Not stealing the blinds enough is a huge leak but also very easy to fix.

That's interesting. I didn't think my PFR was low but that my cold calling was a problem. Maybe I should be 3betting more IP. I've just checked my RFI on BTN and it's 39% so probably needs to increase a bit then. Thanks.:)
 
honeycrush

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Tighten up or widen your 3 bet range on the button. Fold more buttons to EP raises, 3 bet polarized ranges in MP, flat merged ranges. If those concepts don't really make sense (which they often don't at microstakes, not because of you but because your opponents aren't that sophisticated) then I'd advocate simply tightening up to raises and stealing more.

Ahh - I was just thinking that (see my post above that I typed before I read yours!). So I should go more for stealing when it's folded to me or either 3bet or fold rather than cold calling. I don't really use polarized ranges - I just bet for value. Because fish call so much and can't fold I find that betting for anything other than value just gets me into trouble! It just seems that a lot of the times when I thought I was betting for value, I wasn't. :eek: Thanks - all great advice.
 
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orangepeeleo

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I'd say instead of trying to focus on one aspect, just write a small list of things that you will try and notice in others while playing that week, for example, after cafemans link to the awesome blind discussion mp3 I have been trying to notice the regs that are opening wide in LP and cbetting >70% , and then trying to exploit them by calling from the blinds with suited broadways/SC's and x/r'ing flops where we have some equity if called, backdoor draws + 2 overs or w/e.
 
Logan2

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Your 3b on BTN is lower than most position when should be higher, your AF also is really low there with 1.94, which make me think you are playing fit or fold after flat calling. Try to 3b more and flat call little less, you are 3beting 8/6 on blinds vs only 3 on BTN, you have position so should be easy to 3b there more.

3bb/100 on 10nl is not that bad, unless you were crushing to like 10bb/100 on 5nl, but if was around 5bb/100 on 5nl then 3bb/100 on 10nl is kind of expected, a couple leaks fix here and there and should be up.

Also keep in mind 10k hands is a really low example.
 
honeycrush

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I'd say instead of trying to focus on one aspect, just write a small list of things that you will try and notice in others while playing that week, for example, after cafemans link to the awesome blind discussion mp3 I have been trying to notice the regs that are opening wide in LP and cbetting >70% , and then trying to exploit them by calling from the blinds with suited broadways/SC's and x/r'ing flops where we have some equity if called, backdoor draws + 2 overs or w/e.

The reason why I've been focusing on one aspect is that the Poker Zion lessons come in weekly with a new topic each week. I try to add that new concept to my arsenal whilst trying to keep up with the previous ones. It was okay at the start when the first lessons were preflop ranges etc and stuff that I already knew but now it's getting a bit more complex. Could be a good idea to take a bit more time to let each idea sink in and spend more time observing villains. Thanks Peelie!

PS: Where is this blind discussion mp3 link? The calling/check raising is the blinds is something I've been doing a bit of too. As they are mostly stealing from LP I often get folds. Helps keep my redline positive. :D
 
honeycrush

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Your 3b on BTN is lower than most position when should be higher, your AF also is really low there with 1.94, which make me think you are playing fit or fold after flat calling. Try to 3b more and flat call little less, you are 3beting 8/6 on blinds vs only 3 on BTN, you have position so should be easy to 3b there more.

3bb/100 on 10nl is not that bad, unless you were crushing to like 10bb/100 on 5nl, but if was around 5bb/100 on 5nl then 3bb/100 on 10nl is kind of expected, a couple leaks fix here and there and should be up.

Also keep in mind 10k hands is a really low example.

Thanks Logan. Yes - looking at those stats I can see that my calling on the BTN and trying to play postflop is making me play more passively. My biggest losing hands though came from me thinking I had the best hand and making huge mistakes. I wasn't really playing fit or fold.

Here's an example. Player was a TAG and I was punished for flat calling an UTG raise:

poker stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

CO: $16.96 (169.6 bb)
Hero (BTN): $11.32 (113.2 bb)
SB: $10.67 (106.7 bb)
BB: $10.76 (107.6 bb)
UTG: $10 (100 bb)
MP: $17.43 (174.3 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with Q
spade4.gif
K
heart4.gif

UTG raises to $0.40, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.40, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.95) 7
spade4.gif
Q
heart4.gif
K
diamond4.gif
(2 players)
UTG bets $0.50, Hero raises to $2.40, UTG raises to $9.60 and is all-in, Hero calls $7.20

Turn: ($20.15) 2
diamond4.gif
(2 players, 1 is all-in)
River: ($20.15) J
spade4.gif
(2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $20.15 pot ($0.91 rake)
Final Board: 7
spade4.gif
Q
heart4.gif
K
diamond4.gif
2
diamond4.gif
J
spade4.gif

Hero mucked Q
spade4.gif
K
heart4.gif
and lost (-$10 net)
UTG showed 7
heart4.gif
7
diamond4.gif
and won $19.24 ($9.24 net)


And here's another. This time cold calling CO's 3bet with a marginal hand and floating his flop bet led to me stupidly thinking I was ahead or at the very least could rep the straight. Bad move. CO had 3bet stat of 16% and seemed to be 3betting light but this time he had it.

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

CO: $14.59 (145.9 bb)
Hero (BTN): $10.77 (107.7 bb)
SB: $15.78 (157.8 bb)
BB: $10.64 (106.4 bb)
UTG: $10 (100 bb)
MP: $28.81 (288.1 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with Q
heart4.gif
A
diamond4.gif

UTG folds, MP raises to $0.30, CO raises to $0.90, Hero calls $0.90, SB calls $0.85, BB folds, MP calls $0.60

Flop: ($3.70) Q
club4.gif
2
diamond4.gif
K
heart4.gif
(4 players)
SB checks, MP checks, CO bets $2.60, Hero calls $2.60, 2 folds

Turn: ($8.90) A
heart4.gif
(2 players)
CO bets $4.70, Hero raises to $7.27 and is all-in, CO calls $2.57

River: ($23.44) 3
spade4.gif
(2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $23.44 pot ($1.05 rake)
Final Board: Q
club4.gif
2
diamond4.gif
K
heart4.gif
A
heart4.gif
3
spade4.gif

CO showed A
club4.gif
K
spade4.gif
and won $22.39 ($11.62 net)
Hero showed Q
heart4.gif
A
diamond4.gif
and lost (-$10.77 net)

These are the kinds of spots (and bad play) that are getting me into trouble on the BTN. :( Don't know why I raised the flop so much on first hand. Might have been a misclick.
 
S

ScottishMatt

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I just stole 90% of your HUD Cafe :)

As for the hands Honey

1) Just fold pre, it's OK flatting hands IP but you have to look at your opponents position and judge his hand ranges. I know if you flatted my UTG range with KQo I would have you dominated a lot.

2) I'm cool with pre, however unless villain is a gigantic spewer then he won't be firing into 3 people in an inflated pot unless he has TP at least here.
 
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jsh169

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First hand seems pretty standard especially since he's a short stack. The second hand, you should beable to consider qs+ ak in his range on the turn, that being said I still seeing vast majority going with this hand.
 
pocketehs

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I just stole 90% of your HUD Cafe :)

As for the hands Honey

1) Just fold pre, it's OK flatting hands IP but you have to look at your opponents position and judge his hand ranges. I know if you flatted my UTG range with KQo I would have you dominated a lot.

2) I'm cool with pre, however unless villain is a gigantic spewer then he won't be firing into 3 people in an inflated pot unless he has TP at least here.

Disagree Matt. UTG is going to have so many pairs and SCs. Probably going to opening like 15% which is fine to flat against . Folding is nitty imo.

I'm pretty sure both hands are coolers. Hand 1 I flat flop and jam turns though. Hand 2 I'm trying to think of bands he's going to stack off other than KQ.
 
Cafeman

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H1 is a cooler, but H2 is a fold pre, we're not even completing the action.
 
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ScottishMatt

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If UTG is opening 15% then pre is definitely a call. I don't mind it but just trying to indicate the reasons for flatting pre should be more solid than just because you have position.

Besides Honey just said TAG, if he is like 17/14 then I don't like flatting pre. Agree with flat flop and shove OTT though.
 
Cafeman

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To be clear, I was talking about folding pre in this hand.

And here's another. This time cold calling CO's 3bet with a marginal hand and floating his flop bet led to me stupidly thinking I was ahead or at the very least could rep the straight. Bad move. CO had 3bet stat of 16% and seemed to be 3betting light but this time he had it.

Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

CO: $14.59 (145.9 bb)
Hero (BTN): $10.77 (107.7 bb)
SB: $15.78 (157.8 bb)
BB: $10.64 (106.4 bb)
UTG: $10 (100 bb)
MP: $28.81 (288.1 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with Q
heart4.gif
A
diamond4.gif

UTG folds, MP raises to $0.30, CO raises to $0.90, Hero calls $0.90, SB calls $0.85, BB folds, MP calls $0.60
 
honeycrush

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Hand 1 - Villain was a TAG with stats of 16/15. Stove puts him on 77+ and broadways so my 2 pair should have been beating all hands apart form KK/QQ/77. Actually I've just put the range in Stove with that board and it says I have 82% equity against his range. So that should mean it's okay to flat right? Not sure if I've made a mistake with working this out.

Hand 2 - Villain was quite aggro with stats of 23/23/15.5. It seemed as if he was playing a lot of hands and 3betting a ton. According to Stove again it looks as if I would have only 58% equity against his 3bet range with AQo. Thought I would trap him with my 2 pair but yes I probably should have just folded and kept out of his way. Just realised - because another player was in hand these calculations probably don't work so need to redo.
 
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Yeah but he isn't going to GII with all his 15% range. Besides he is a nit-tag so he is knowledgeable enough to be positionally aware. Which would mean that his UTG range is even tighter. There is a good chance he isn't as positionally aware as he would want to be, however even with that in mind you are probably looking at an 8-9% UTG range at best. If we stove KQo vs 9% preflop you will be looking at a 62/38 percentage. If you feel that you can outplay him well enough post to justify a call when his range is giving him a 20% equity lead then I can't criticise the call.
 
honeycrush

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Yeah but he isn't going to GII with all his 15% range. Besides he is a nit-tag so he is knowledgeable enough to be positionally aware. Which would mean that his UTG range is even tighter. There is a good chance he isn't as positionally aware as he would want to be, however even with that in mind you are probably looking at an 8-9% UTG range at best. If we stove KQo vs 9% preflop you will be looking at a 62/38 percentage. If you feel that you can outplay him well enough post to justify a call when his range is giving him a 20% equity lead then I can't criticise the call.

Aah - okay. I think I understand. So it's okay to call but I need to fold against these types if they go allin unless I have top set or better? Thanks!
 
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