Microstakes: Am I playing too tight?

honeycrush

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For the last month I've been playing 2NL FR Zoom.

I've been working on playing tighter as Leakbuster identified that as one of my leaks. Previous VPIP/PFR was 18/13 and in the last week it's been down to 14/12 and last 1k hands or so more like 12/10.

BUT I was winning before and was up 15 buy-ins and in the last week have dropped 15 buy-ins! :eek: The tighter I play, the more I seem to lose.

I've really been working hard on my game, doing a lot of study after each sesion, reading, posting hands for HA etc etc.

Looking at my tracker, I'd say 75% of the losses have been coolers and suckouts. The other 25% have been my mistakes eg - all-in with AK or QQ, or value-betting myself with TPTK when villain has 2 pair or set. I've even been folding AA etc sometimes when facing extreme aggression and there is an obvious straight of flush on board. Something I wouldn't have done a couple of months ago. I'm folding to most 3bets and only 3betting JJ+ and usually folding to 4bets unless I'm holding AA or KK. Generally, I'm playing more passively - could this be the problem?

What I'm wondering is if by limiting myself to playing only premium hands I am setting myself up for more suckouts, coolers and therefore losses when fish call all my bets and raises with marginal hands or small PPs.

I keep reading that NITs are the most profitable at the microstakes but it isn't working in my case!

Any help appreciated. :)
 
micromachine

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Don't play zoom - problem solved :)

Nits are definitely not the most profitable villains at the microstakes, the loose calling station fish are, and this type of player is probably thin on the ground in zoom. You are playing against nits and trying to tighten up yourself - remember we should generally be playing the opposite of how our opponents are playing. Seems like instead of playing just premium hands you want to be stealing a ton with a wide range from late position, re-stealing a ton vs CO/BTN steals and trying to play more hands that you can stack AA/KK holding nits with such as lower PPs and SCs.
 
honeycrush

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Don't play zoom - problem solved :)

Nits are definitely not the most profitable villains at the microstakes, the loose calling station fish are, and this type of player is probably thin on the ground in zoom. You are playing against nits and trying to tighten up yourself - remember we should generally be playing the opposite of how our opponents are playing. Seems like instead of playing just premium hands you want to be stealing a ton with a wide range from late position, re-stealing a ton vs CO/BTN steals and trying to play more hands that you can stack AA/KK holding nits with such as lower PPs and SCs.

Ha ha! But Zoom is so much fun! :p

Really good points and pointers. Zoom obviously has a much bigger effect on play and villain type than I realised. There are lots of short stack fish there but they are prone to going all-in very easily with anything from AA to 42o. There are also lots of nitty regs. You're right, I haven't seen many loose calling stations since I started playing Zoom. Can't wait to finish my 15k Zoom challenge. Only 3k hands to go! LAG stylee!! Thanks MM! :)
 
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Worak

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Don't play zoom - problem solved :)

Copied the vital part.

Playing zoom table selection goes out of the window, also as said 2NL zoom is extremely nitty compared to 2NL FR regular tables.
 
micromachine

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I've even been folding AA etc sometimes when facing extreme aggression and there is an obvious straight of flush on board.

This is good btw, being able to let go of big pairs post flop is important.
 
honeycrush

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Copied the vital part.

Playing zoom table selection goes out of the window, also as said 2NL zoom is extremely nitty compared to 2NL FR regular tables.

Thanks Graf - Yes, I will go back to regular FR very shortly.

This is good btw, being able to let go of big pairs post flop is important.

Thanks - doing my best to work on my leaks. :)
 
LuckyChippy

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Playing too tight at the micros - unpossible!

Although Zoom is a completely different thing. Everyone is generally playing very tight there and just folding till their better hands. You probably want to be stealing more when you're the cutoff or button as people will be folding tons.
 
honeycrush

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Playing too tight at the micros - unpossible!

Although Zoom is a completely different thing. Everyone is generally playing very tight there and just folding till their better hands. You probably want to be stealing more when you're the cutoff or button as people will be folding tons.

Thanks Lucky. That's exactly how I was playing until I read an article in a blog online that said you should play tighter in Zoom than on regular tables. I realise now that it was a really bad move - as MM said you need to be exploiting the super nits not try to be more nitty than they are! :D I will keep the nitty play for the regular tables from now on. It's all good - the more mistakes I make, the more I learn. :)
 
pocketehs

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Honeycrush maybe post your Player Stats and Position Stats. Hopefully we can help find some leaks.
 
honeycrush

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Honeycrush maybe post your Player Stats and Position Stats. Hopefully we can help find some leaks.

Thanks pocketehs. I think my main problem has been not adjusting for Zoom - or maybe trying to adjust in the wrong way. I've almost finished my Zoom challenge. Once I've fnished and am back to regular tables I'll post my stats and get some help. :)
 
Samango

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in the last week it's been down to 14/12 and last 1k hands or so more like 12/10.

These seem like pretty small samples from which to draw any major conclusions.

I think swings in BI's won could possibly be largely due to variance here.
 
Samango

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I keep reading that NITs are the most profitable at the microstakes but it isn't working in my case!

I read this to mean - a profitable hero player type to become, rather than a villain player type to profitably exploit

Nits are definitely not the most profitable villains at the microstakes, the loose calling station fish are, and this type of player is probably thin on the ground in zoom.

Obviously zoom does change how player types will perform when many have tightened up and are only playing premiums, so micromachine's points still have merit
 
honeycrush

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These seem like pretty small samples from which to draw any major conclusions.

I think swings in BI's won could possibly be largely due to variance here.

Thanks Samango. A 15BI downswing over 5k hands seems huge to me as I've not played a high volume of poker as yet but perhaps you are right. It took me 7500 hands to win 15BI and only 5k hands to lose it all. :(
 
honeycrush

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I read this to mean - a profitable hero player type to become, rather than a villain player type to profitably exploit

I don't think I explained myself very well - I was trying to become a NIT by tightening up - but facing superNITS and a few aggro fish this is probably not the best strategy.
 
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I wouldn't pay too much attention to leakbuster zoom analysis, the dynamics totally different, you could be stealing 80% at zoom and not be making mistakes, whereas normal fr this would generally be a leak. Likewise, you can 3bet LP opens much wider vs villains who you know are stealing optimally at zoom (loads!).

Better to just post stats I think, to be playing a nitty style at zoom you really need to make good laydowns so I'm guessing postflop is where your leaking
 
youregoodmate

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Definitely narrow your PFR and VPIP, 18/13 is a little wide.
 
acky100

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I've been playing 100nl zoom for the last month, there are definitely different dynamics but it really isnt as nitty or different to "normal" poker as people think.

I'd say if you're not absolutely annihilating 2nl zoom you have some massive postflop leaks and probably cant lay down obvious lay down hands at times. I've done a little coaching with a guy at 2nl zoom and it looks like people are really trying their hardest to give their money away there, its crazy :D

Dont worry about preflop, tight is good, postflop is where you make or lose your money
 
honeycrush

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Thanks guys. I wasn't going to post more stats until the end but since you're all saying I should post some - here they are. The first ones are for how I was playing before when I was winning and the second ones are the most recent 7k hands. They are completely different stats and don't overlap at all - in total I'ave played around 13k hands on Zoom. Yes, there's still a huge gap between VPIP and PFR. I'm at a loss as to how to correct this. Should I be folding low/medium PPs and AJ/AQ/KQ if there's been one raise before me and I'm in late position? I'be been calling with these hands rather than folding or 3-betting which I think accounts for the gap.

Another thing is the 3-betting. I don't understand why my fold to 3-bet is so low. The only time I flat or 4-bet is with TT+ or AK. The other times I just fold. In one session I might only get 3-bet 5 times and 3 of those times I will have a premium so will not fold.

Again thanks for your feedback. It's very helpful.

Position Stats Oct12

Position Stats Last 7k
 
honeycrush

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Here are some examples of biggest post flop losses.

Hand 1 - TPTK: I raised a limper and he called. Should I have put him on an 8 or JT or AQ? So many times in this position I've found people have called down with weaker Ace.

poker stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

BTN: $0.89 (44.5 bb)
Hero (SB): $2.01 (100.5 bb)
BB: $3.54 (177 bb)
UTG+1: $2.36 (118 bb)
UTG+2: $1.68 (84 bb)
MP1: $2.44 (122 bb)
MP2: $1.87 (93.5 bb)
MP3: $2 (100 bb)
CO: $7 (350 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A
club4.gif
K
spade4.gif

3 folds, MP2 calls $0.02, 2 folds, BTN calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.08, BB folds, MP2 calls $0.06, BTN calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.26) 9
diamond4.gif
A
spade4.gif
8
heart4.gif
(3 players)
Hero bets $0.24, MP2 calls $0.24, BTN folds

Turn: ($0.74) 8
spade4.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $0.42, MP2 calls $0.42

River: ($1.58) Q
heart4.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $1.14, MP2 calls $1.13

Results: $3.84 pot ($0.13 rake)
Final Board: 9
diamond4.gif
A
spade4.gif
8
heart4.gif
8
spade4.gif
Q
heart4.gif

Hero showed A
club4.gif
K
spade4.gif
and lost (-$1.87 net)
MP2 showed J
heart4.gif
T
spade4.gif
and won $3.71 ($1.84 net)


Hand 2 - Overpair: Should I have folded to flop raise? Often when short stacks go all in like this I've seen that they've just had top pair and good/average kicker. He called a raise and then called my 3-bet so didn't know what hand to put him on.

Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

BTN: $0.87 (43.5 bb)
Hero (SB): $2.04 (102 bb)
BB: $0.71 (35.5 bb)
UTG+1: $2.02 (101 bb)
UTG+2: $3.79 (189.5 bb)
MP1: $2.86 (143 bb)
MP2: $1.26 (63 bb)
MP3: $0.50 (25 bb)
CO: $1.09 (54.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T
heart4.gif
T
diamond4.gif

UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to $0.06, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.06, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.20, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.14

Flop: ($0.48) 4
club4.gif
6
spade4.gif
8
spade4.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $0.34, MP2 raises to $1.06 and is all-in, Hero calls $0.72

Turn: ($2.60) 4
spade4.gif
(2 players, 1 is all-in)
River: ($2.60) J
club4.gif
(2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $2.60 pot ($0.09 rake)
Final Board: 4
club4.gif
6
spade4.gif
8
spade4.gif
4
spade4.gif
J
club4.gif

Hero showed T
heart4.gif
T
diamond4.gif
and lost (-$1.26 net)
MP2 showed K
spade4.gif
J
spade4.gif
and won $2.51 ($1.25 net)

Hand 3 - Set: Another example where I got it in bad. Should I have slowed down on the turn. When I saw the A I was glad as I thought he might be on AK or something.

Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

BTN: $1.60 (80 bb)
SB: $2.09 (104.5 bb)
BB: $2.17 (108.5 bb)
UTG+1: $4.84 (242 bb)
UTG+2: $3.01 (150.5 bb)
MP1: $2.03 (101.5 bb)
MP2: $1.59 (79.5 bb)
Hero (MP3): $2.17 (108.5 bb)
CO: $1.24 (62 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 7
spade4.gif
7
heart4.gif

UTG+1 raises to $0.08, UTG+2 calls $0.08, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.08, 4 folds

Flop: ($0.27) 6
heart4.gif
9
heart4.gif
7
diamond4.gif
(3 players)
UTG+1 bets $0.20, UTG+2 folds, Hero raises to $0.60, UTG+1 calls $0.40

Turn: ($1.47) A
diamond4.gif
(2 players)
UTG+1 bets $1.42, Hero raises to $1.49 and is all-in, UTG+1 calls $0.07

River: ($4.45) 8
heart4.gif
(2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $4.45 pot ($0.16 rake)
Final Board: 6
heart4.gif
9
heart4.gif
7
diamond4.gif
A
diamond4.gif
8
heart4.gif

UTG+1 showed A
spade4.gif
A
club4.gif
and won $4.29 ($2.12 net)
Hero showed 7
spade4.gif
7
heart4.gif
and lost (-$2.17 net)

Hand 4 - Laydown: This is a typical laydown I might make. With all the PF action I though it likely that he mght have JJ+ . I guess he could have had AJ/TT/99 though and it was a bad laydown...

Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

BTN: $2.05 (102.5 bb)
SB: $2.01 (100.5 bb)
BB: $1.66 (83 bb)
UTG+1: $2.25 (112.5 bb)
UTG+2: $2.62 (131 bb)
MP1: $1.49 (74.5 bb)
MP2: $2.45 (122.5 bb)
Hero (MP3): $2.03 (101.5 bb)
CO: $3.12 (156 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Q
heart4.gif
Q
diamond4.gif

UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to $0.06, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.18, CO folds, BTN raises to $0.60, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.42

Flop: ($1.29) 4
diamond4.gif
4
heart4.gif
J
heart4.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $0.74, BTN raises to $1.45 and is all-in, Hero folds

Results: $2.77 pot ($0.10 rake)
Final Board: 4
diamond4.gif
4
heart4.gif
J
heart4.gif

BTN mucked and won $2.67 ($1.33 net)
Hero mucked Q
heart4.gif
Q
diamond4.gif
and lost (-$1.34 net)



Thanks again for your insights.
 
micromachine

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Hand 1 is unfortunate - check-calling or check-folding the river may have been better idk. Difficult because, like you say, at 2nl you can get value from weak aces here. I would have probably bet less on the flop, which would somewhat control the rate at which the pot grows and make it easier to get out later if raised. I rarely bet pot, my quick bet buttons are 60%, 70% and 80%, I would prob have done just over 60% here.

Hand 2 - Well played, he would probably have 4bet higher pairs pre and since he's a shortie he's probably a fish so overpair will mostly be fine here.

Hand 3 - Well played, it's a cooler nothing you can do

Hand 4 - With 100bb effective stacks pretty much don't ever call 4bets unless you are prepared to go all the way postflop. Donking the flop and then folding is even worse, you have an overpair and you only have 70c to call for a $4 pot. This is the hand you really need to think about imo.
 
honeycrush

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Hand 1 is unfortunate - check-calling or check-folding the river may have been better idk. Difficult because, like you say, at 2nl you can get value from weak aces here. I would have probably bet less on the flop, which would somewhat control the rate at which the pot grows and make it easier to get out later if raised. I rarely bet pot, my quick bet buttons are 60%, 70% and 80%, I would prob have done just over 60% here.


Hand 4 - With 100bb effective stacks pretty much don't ever call 4bets unless you are prepared to go all the way postflop. Donking the flop and then folding is even worse, you have an overpair and you only have 70c to call for a $4 pot. This is the hand you really need to think about imo.


Thanks MM. BlackRain's book advocates big value betting at micros but I guess this doesn't transfer so well to Zoom. I have slowed down since with betting my TPTK hands.

With Hand 4 - Yes, in hindsight I could have called but I was so weary of being sucked out on/coolered at this point. I've folded QQ to 4bets before and was told in my challenge thread that I shouldn't do it. I've also got it in with QQ many times and run into AA and KK. So really don't know what to do in this situation now if facing a flop raise on a wet flop.
 
micromachine

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About hand 1- Big value betting with 2pair plus is great but sometimes it's better to pot control with TPTK, especially vs reggy type villains.

Hand 4 - Yeah with QQ and JJ it's hard to know what to do when you get 4bet. You need to assess the villain and table dynamics (no table dynamic with zoom though) then decide whether to fold or shove. Calling 4bets is fine as long as you GII postflop.
 
honeycrush

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About hand 1- Big value betting with 2pair plus is great but sometimes it's better to pot control with TPTK, especially vs reggy type villains.

Hand 4 - Yeah with QQ and JJ it's hard to know what to do when you get 4bet. You need to assess the villain and table dynamics (no table dynamic with zoom though) then decide whether to fold or shove. Calling 4bets is fine as long as you GII postflop.

Ah that makes sense. Yes, should have just shoved on the flop and put him to the decision of whether to call or not. Thanks!
 
micromachine

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Ah, no :) I didn't mean that you should shove the flop, just that you should be looking to get it all in at some point.

I would probably check the flop then shove over his bet, you can get value from AK this way. If he doesn't bet then bet any turn.
 
honeycrush

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Ah, no :) I didn't mean that you should shove the flop, just that you should be looking to get it all in at some point.

I would probably check the flop then shove over his bet, you can get value from AK this way. If he doesn't bet then bet any turn.

Ha ha! Oops! Okay I get it now. I think... :D
 
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