Micro stakes NL - Anyone play these a lot?

I need some help on these. I expected it would take a while to change gears and adjust to these so being down over two days doesn't concern me much. Part of this was unrealistic expectations. Going in I figured around 50 cents an hour at the .01/.02 tables. If I do the standard decent rate though I should only be at about 10-20 cents an hour. BTW I'm down like 4 bucks now, but I'm up about 2 dollars from my low point. So I've adjusted to the way people play there.

Here's the problem though. They're all nits. I've watched every table at those limits and they're all rocks. Every hand I've won since my low point has been from raising standard amount preflop and everyone folds, or being in position after a flop and flat bluffing with a pot sized bet. I haven't won one hand honestly. Even when I make a hand and give people correct odds to chase they fold.

I've tried limping in with premium hands just to get action. If I hit a good hand and make a 3/4 sized bet then I either only get the preflop limps, or someone has me beat with the nuts. So that 12 cent 3/4 pot bet that I lose from getting called takes me realistically an hour just to get back to where I was.

So two hands like this an hour and I'm losing money. I've done what I normally do and that is play the opposite of how the table is. So I've loosened up and started playing small ball. Any hand I want to play I raise 3-4xBB preflop then bet on the flop even if I miss. It works. It's a winning strategy, but its super risky since one hand could make you lose an hour worth of grinding or more not to mention table image.

What I'm asking is.. When being faced where all tables are super tight and no one wants to bet out unless they have the nuts, is it realistic to expect to win money over the long haul when good runs of cards generally net you so little even when slowplayed, and one hand with a miracle river for the villian every 200 hands puts you in the red??

I understand it's variance and that bad beats happen. In the long run you'll end up ahead. To be honest I'm not really bankrolled for this. I'm trying to not deposit any of my own money, and even though I'm playing the lowest limits, I only started with about 8.50 to work with and setting at around half that now.

BTW I was down 3 dollars from 2 hands. Holding nut flush in position and villian pushes all in to steal pot and then wins both times with runner runner full house. So in all actuallity I'm only down about 1.25 after 10 hours at the tables and should be up 1.75 instead of down any.

I know a run of bad luck will bankrupt me, but if that run doesn't happen or I recognize it when it comes and take a break, can my bankroll handle normal variance and is there anything I could be doing to maximize my hands more without taking huge risks to get sucked out on?

I don't have any answers to your questions, but an observation from my experiences. I sometimes experience what you describe, and other times it's completely different and there will be one or two really loose wild players amidst the others. I'm only slightly up after a few thousand hands. I'm a little confused as to the quality of play at my .02/.04 NL game because I expected there to be more very bad players, but there aren't.

The thing I'm suspicious about is the presence of bots. They are supposedly known to be good enough to grind out very small wins at the microstakes, but not at higher stakes. If you were to compare the quality of players at my .02/.04 NL on the Cake network to the quality of players at the $1.00/$2.00 NL at the Vegas casinos, there is no comparison at all. The live tables are full of all kinds of varieties of players, both good and bad, but enough bad ones, really bad ones, to make one scratch their head as to why they're even sitting down to play at all.

Really makes me wonder.

Here's the problem though. They're all nits. I've watched every table at those limits and they're all rocks. Every hand I've won since my low point has been from raising standard amount preflop and everyone folds, or being in position after a flop and flat bluffing with a pot sized bet. I haven't won one hand honestly. Even when I make a hand and give people correct odds to chase they fold.

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Only thing I can say, and I don't know if you're doing this, or what network you play on, but on FT you can search tables by highest pot size as well as how many people enter on the PF, so that's all I can say. Don't just jump into a table.

So two hands like this an hour and I'm losing money. I've done what I normally do and that is play the opposite of how the table is. So I've loosened up and started playing small ball. Any hand I want to play I raise 3-4xBB preflop then bet on the flop even if I miss. It works. It's a winning strategy, but its super risky since one hand could make you lose an hour worth of grinding or more not to mention table image.

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Really? I've always found c-bets to be relatively safe.

What I'm asking is.. When being faced where all tables are super tight and no one wants to bet out unless they have the nuts, is it realistic to expect to win money over the long haul when good runs of cards generally net you so little even when slowplayed, and one hand with a miracle river for the villian every 200 hands puts you in the red??

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Absolutely not. Maximize winnings and minimize losings.

I know a run of bad luck will bankrupt me, but if that run doesn't happen or I recognize it when it comes and take a break, can my bankroll handle normal variance and is there anything I could be doing to maximize my hands more without taking huge risks to get sucked out on?

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As a proportion of BR to buy in, I would be inclined to say no. But I don't think that necessarily means you can't handle the swings. I've heard that you generally want around 5% or less of your BR at a given table (though I play around 10% now) and if a buy in for you is $2 out of your $8.50 you're obviously well above that 5-10% level. But in my honest opinion, at these stakes I just say go for it.

I guess if you don't want to get sucked out on just play it aggressively? With risk comes reward.

Ty all for your responses.. I played again this morning and am down to 2 dollars.. lol I like to think I'm a decent above average player. I read people well, and decimate home games. I just have no clue what's going on in games at these stakes. People don't play postflop unless they have TPGK or better. I'm roughly crunching the numbers in my head and thinking it's really a losing proposition at these stakes. I'll tell you why...

These are the approx. stats from my sessions the past 2 days

You steal blinds and limps 1x a circuit by making a standard raise: ~.50+
Out of 25 hands you miss the flop or are dominated ~15 times: ~0.45-
The hands that hit the flop well win 50% of the time: 5x ~2.00+
The hands that hit and get dominated on the turn: 4x ~1.20-
One bad beat on river per 100 hands 1x ~0.80-
0.07/1.00 rake ~0.34-

~0.30- average

Of course these figures are speculative and dependant on how I bet.
Any strong hand I'm going to play I raise 3-5xBB
If I hit the flop strongly I bet the pot, non scary turns I bet the pot again
This assumes that the tables are really tight only playing premium hands
You play 25 hands per 100 paying average of 3 cents to see a flop
The hands you win more often than not shut down after the flop netting you around 0.20 when you C-bet and everyone folds
Say out of the 5 wins you get 3 hands that never go past the flop
1 time out of 5 someone will chase to the turn giving you another 0.20 missing their draw
1 time out of 5 someone chases to showdown and nets you 0.50 more

This fits with the amount of time I've played and how much I've lost to general game play. Basically I'd be even if it wasn't for the rake aside from a few dollars I've used to experiment with things..

I think the biggest problem here is what was stated earlier. There are better players playing these games than you would expect and treating every penny as if it were gold. I've seen pros take more risks than these people. They are making less mistakes, and when in doubt they fold. Unless you play perfect poker any mistake another player makes can be negated by your own mistake or a bad beat. If everyone plays top notch poker then everyone loses because the money evens out at the table and rake eats it alive. The only thing I've found that comes close to working is set a tight aggressive image, take down a pot or two with premium hands, show your cards, then start jamming every pot like you flopped the nuts until someone catches you with your hand in the cookie jar and puts you back to even.. =P Does anyone have a winning strategy for these games?? lol

I have a hard time seeing that you said 2nl players are nits. you probably are choosing bad tables, look for the ones that have a vpip of 40%+

bgomez89 said:

I have a hard time seeing that you said 2nl players are nits. you probably are choosing bad tables, look for the ones that have a vpip of 40%+

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agreed. all i come across ath the 2NL tables are overbetting donks that play any two cards under the sun.

? I don't know how you can keep finding tables at that limit that are all nits; to even try intentionally to find tables like that would be difficult. The only thing I can think of is maybe the time of day that you're choosing to play. Try during Tilt's Happy Hour or something.


And you're looking at very short term results, as far as I can glean from your posts. If you're talking about "yesterday's and today's sessions" that's pretty short term unless you're playing 24 tables and seeing 5,000 hands per session, and even that's not long term. In my experience the lowest stakes tend to have pretty high variance because the players can be unpredictable; one hand they might shove the flop with an overpair, next time it might mean middle pair on the flop.

2 days is short term, but the consistency with which you've lost does point to the very strong possibility that you've got some massive leaks.

C-bets are not risky, and if they are you're doing it wrong.
These guys are nits right, and they fold too much? So reduce your bet size, drop it all the way down to 50% of the pot for c-bets (when you have nothing, yes this is exploitable but wait for them to adapt before you change it - if they adapt at all).

Whatever you do, don't slow play. Just accept that you're not going to get huge value from your big hands.
Change the hands that you value so highly to suited connectors and small pocket pairs, raise pre-flop and c-bet small, if they really are only continuing with the hand if they have top pair or better then this will make you most of your money. The reason you're in there with suited connectors and small pairs though is that they're the type of hands that are going to flop bigger hands than the nits will, most of the time you're going to miss so it will just be about c-betting and getting out of the way when they hang around (although with suited connectors, they will probably allow you to cheaply draw, just don't count on huge implied odds) but occasionally you will take a big pot from someone when you do hit.

TPTK hands on the other hand should make you focus a lot on pot control, do not over inflate the size of the pot.

Also read up on blind stealing in cash games, it's proffitable even in a game that's not super nitty. On these tables there should be a couple of seats you can proffitably steal from (even when there's a limper before you). Note that you're not aiming to make the blinds fold, that's how you steal the blinds without a fight but if they call then almost everything even a very strong player does in defending their blind is -EV for them, they're OOP and they were forced to post their blind without looking at their cards, this is huge, exploit it.

Remember that these guys are not great players, if they were then they would be playing at higher stakes. They are just nits who you're not adapting to. Nits do an amazing quantity of stupid things post-flop, they let you draw and they frequently read the situation badly and either pay you off or fold the best hand.

I don't play online, so you may be 100% right, but I'll hazard a guess that the nits at 1c/2c tables are not unbeatable poker pros.

Yeah you absolutely have to be consistently sitting at the wrong table or something. LOL But although there are some nits at this level most of them are not.

Table selection is key. Playrs/flop % and total pot should be indicators that you should be looking for.


Now, there are some decent players but there are a whole lot more fish at the micro level. With a little time and a few more hands Im sure youll come to see that as well.

Good Luck on resurrecting your Bank Roll.

i have been playing micro stakes on FTP for just over a week now. So far these are some key things ive noticed personally.

1.) The plays and players are EXtremely soft
2.) players will chase any draw
3.) short stacks only shove with a pair or 2 high cards
4.) When you hit the nuts..shove it all in..no value bets..u will get called
5.) Dont chase draws yourself unless its cheap

over this past week im up over $25 from 1/2 cent tables ..i know this is high..but i also have a VPIP of 18..fairly tight..i am a nit..but after reading F Paulsons post about how being a nit works for him..i decided being a nit is better than passive.

ive played a little over 15K hands...like Belgo told me its a small sample size ..but i feel very comfortable in FR than i do in 6 max.

when u hit your TPTK and u get re raised ...USUALLY your beat..so fold..u have to ..even if its hard..usually they hit a set...also bet big as to not give ppl odds to chase draws even though they will no matter what you bet..so make sure your getting paid for your hands.

GL bud

hello, i think i can help you here, i have played 40.000 hands in a little over 1 month, my winnings are good, up almost 100$. so here is what i did:

first, select tables by players/flop, second, always join full tables, third, make sure that the average pot is a bit big, anything above 40 cents at these tables is good.

join more than 1 table, start with 4. dont buy in for too much, buy in for 1.5$

when i get a hand like AA,KK,QQ,AKs i raise about 7XBB, so the 64s guys wont call so much, they will still call however. with these hands, if you can, preflop, go all in.

AQ, AJ, KQ i reise for midle and late position, if i miss, vs 1 player i always c-bet, if more than one player, i check.

i limp in for the BB with small pairs to try to catch a set.

when i have something good, i bet 3/4 of the pot, maybe even pot.

also, from SB dont call very othen, even tho its 1 cent only.

and thats about it from 1c/2c. good luck.

if you want, you can check these guys out on pokerstars, they are amaizing 1c/2c grinders. here are some names you can check on pokertableratings: ozn2007terra, sawcrish.

my name on pokerstars is Alcoholu.

Wow so much help!! Thank you all.. =) I think it may just be the time of day I am playing honestly. I'm east coast and playing early in the morning. I don't know if it's the right thinking, but I'm thinking more American players are on the fishy side. This is my first substantial amount I've taken to the real tables. For the most part I realistically expected to lose it all seeing as how it's a new experience for me. The biggest leak in my game to me is the amount of time it takes me to adapt to different situations which is something that will only come with time. I am also finding it hard to not overvalue my bankroll. Sure it was just 8 bucks and some change, but you'd think it was a million dollars the way I am playing with it and being down affected my overall demeanor. After all I worked my butt off to win that much. That being said it's all a learning experience that I am sure to fine tune over time. Thank you for helping me become a better player. =)

Just an update.. The tables I had been playing were all high vpip tables, but average pot sizes.. 25-30 cents. I found one this morning with high vpip and higher than average pot sizes. I found a few fish there and almost doubled up from a few hands. I stopped thinking about the money and started playing the cards and odds which I should have been doing to start with I admit. When the fish left the table and people were folding to min continuation bets I left. I've got a tourney tomorrow which I hope adds to my bankroll, but I think I'll be able to turn the nose dive around since I've found what adjustments I needed. No major leaks in my game, I put them off odds to draw and bet lower than normal when I have nut flushes. One thing I have found though... When you're way ahead and there's nothing scary slow play pays you off. After all when trying to catch fish it's better to look non threatening than trying to beat them over the top of the head with your lure.. =D

Every site is different at the different stakes. So, PayMeh, where are you playing? If you can honestly say all tables are like this, then you aren't playing at Stars or FTP!

Someone else has mentioned this and I wll put it out there too, table selection is everything! Don't just sit down--look at the table statistics. What are the stack sizes? Generally, I like to sit at tables where the stack sizes are all about the same size or larger than what I am buyng in for.

On the Bankroll side of things, most people who are trying to start a bankroll from nothing DO NOT have the bankroll for ring games. SO, if you want low variance, maybe the Single Table SnGs is where you should be until your BR is large enough to withstand the HUGE swings that the ring games can bring.

Oh and fish do taste better when you don't beat the hell out of them.

I am playing at FT but it's like 7am EST when I play.. I started playing later and it helped a bunch, but the damage had been done. Yeah I'm picky with table selection.. I never sit down where there's a dominant chip leader.. average pot size I sit at is 40 cents plus and players to flop 45% or greater. So you're saying the tables where people have 2x the buy in is where I should be?

The SnG worry me though.. once you're committed there's no changing your mind if the table is horrid. I tried a HU table and was against a guy shoving every hand.. I took my time and got AJs and shoved back only to be up against pocket aces. To me it wasn't worth it. Against anyone like this at a normal table and I could have just left before I lost a buck.

Anyways.. The experiences were all good lessons. At least now I know what to expect at these tables. By the time I got it all figured out I was down to .75 cents... Fought back to 2.50.. Then variance got hold of me and 2 bad beats broke me. Both were river full houses over nut straights.. =( If they hadn't hit though I'd be back even by now. =P

Why do you care if there's a dominant chip stack? Their effective stack size is always the same as yours, even if they don't play like it.

Also that heads up table you mentioned would be a dream, you got unlucky but you had huge edge.

I just had a wild experience. I was in like $50 at a .25/.50 6 person table, and I was playing. Get AQs from first position, raised it, got re-raised, called.

Flop comes A 7 8 rainbow. I raise $6, he calls, turn comes an 8, I raise $9 and push him all in. He turns over pocket kings. Hits a king on the river and I go on tilt. A few hands later the same player raises $1 UTG and I'm in SB with AKo, I re-raise and he calls. Flop comes J T 6 he raises and I push all in (like $20-$30) and lose my buy in with no help on the turn and river (he had KJ).

I'm clearly on tilt here, but I jump on another table and take a few breaths. Dealt QQ UTG, I raise to $1.50, get re-raised by a donk (I look up people's stats) in SB to $6.25. I call. Flop comes 8 7 3 rainbow. I check. He raises like $6. I call. Turn comes a 4. I check, he raises to $12, I call. The pot is like $25. River comes a T. I once again check and he raises $25 which is pretty much all in for both of us and I call. He turns over AK. I am incredibly relieved.

Used to lost my shirt got some cash and went to the 5c/10c tables.

My current strategy for cash games
a) Buy in for the minimum .. makes you look like a weak player.
b) Cash out when doubled or more.
Both of these will lower the variance in high variance games such as NL hold em

1. Play the Player
2. Play the Position
3. Play the Cards
Adjusting my game to this strategy has been imensely Helpful and short term so far ..
Profitable

Changed the method of Play on Dec 1.
Playing with a 200 roll wich is now 250 (This does not include previous losses)
slow and steady hoping to build it up.
Made some horrible plays made some great plays and even got a royal flush.
Long way to go and lot's to learn
Cardschat has helped my game immensely.


Thank You to all the members of this site.

rufcut68 said:

a) Buy in for the minimum .. makes you look like a weak player.
b) Cash out when doubled or more.
Both of these will lower the variance in high variance games such as NL hold em

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Playing with the minimum will dramatically reduce your winnings and wont decrease variance. If you really want to do that, read up on shortstack strategy, it's very limited on how much money you can make though.

Playing with a short stack reduces the amount of decisions you can make, you have no implied odds so you really have to play your cards. You can't see flops with marginal cards because of your lack of implied odds, and are going to be forced to shove or fold a lot.

If you play with a deep stack, you can start seeing flops with marginal cards and playing post-flop poker, which is where variance gets reduced (the more decisions you can make, the more a skill difference will effect your winnings). If you want to increase your edge and decrease variance, get your money in on the river a lot.

I'm going to work on a theory I've got. If anyone else wants to try it I'm putting it out there. My whole bankroll was killed by variance. I pushed when I was a 6:1 favorite over the best made hand and got sucked out on 3 times by people hitting 3 and 5 outers on the river. If you believe everything they say about the RNG if I had bet until the river card the outcome would have been different.

From now on I'm not going to shove until I see the river. At least then I have no one to blame but myself when the board pairs on the river and I don't accept that they have made a boat. Plus it gives me more fold equity the more betting rounds there are..

PayMeh said:

Both were river full houses over nut straights.. =(

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Kind of a pet peeve of mine, there is no nut straight (or flush) on a paired board. I think that's dangerous thinking. "Nut straight" implies you have the nuts. Best possible hand. It's not.

RF

Board paired on the river after I shoved on the turn all 3 times.. it was the nuts at the time, and sure out of 100 times I'll get the best of those situations and win my money back 100x over. I wonder if anyone will advance me a few of those wins to revive my bankroll.. lolol

I've now logged about 20000 hands at the micro level, most were at FT, and about 4500 at PS. I averaged only 3.2 BB per 100 hands at FT, but more than 12 BB per 100 here at PS, so I think I've learned some things from my FT mistakes.

My mistake was, I used to shove when I thought I had the nuts. The problem is that, although you are SUPPOSED to win a certain percentage when you are the huge fav., you are not 100%. Many micro players will call you if they have outs regardless of pot odds, and when they hit, you're cleaned out. So now, I bet in increments, if they suck out on the turn or river, at least I still have stuff left. It feels like suckouts do occur less frequently at PS, maybe that's just variance.

Now I just stay patient. Tone down the aggression and pick my spots. Seems to work better now though the suckouts do still sting.

I do hate playing the micro maniacs that go crazy betting everything. All it takes is for them to get lucky one time or for you to call them one time when they actually have a solid hand, and you get cleaned out. But, most of the time, you do beat them.

PayMeh said:

I'm going to work on a theory I've got. If anyone else wants to try it I'm putting it out there. My whole bankroll was killed by variance. I pushed when I was a 6:1 favorite over the best made hand and got sucked out on 3 times by people hitting 3 and 5 outers on the river. If you believe everything they say about the RNG if I had bet until the river card the outcome would have been different.

From now on I'm not going to shove until I see the river. At least then I have no one to blame but myself when the board pairs on the river and I don't accept that they have made a boat. Plus it gives me more fold equity the more betting rounds there are..

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so your saying your gonna bet every street except the river...and once the river comes lets say its a card that pairs the board/gives flush draws/gives straight draws....even if you put in 80% of your stack...you wont put in that last 20% to call them on the river?? i doubt it.

you gotta get your money in when you have the nuts...i wouldn shove it all in unless you think you will get a call because that usually chases ppl away when they see an allin

PattyR said:

i have been playing micro stakes on FTP for just over a week now. So far these are some key things ive noticed personally.

1.) The plays and players are EXtremely soft
2.) players will chase any draw
3.) short stacks only shove with a pair or 2 high cards
4.) When you hit the nuts..shove it all in..no value bets..u will get called
5.) Dont chase draws yourself unless its cheap

over this past week im up over $25 from 1/2 cent tables ..i know this is high..but i also have a VPIP of 18..fairly tight..i am a nit..but after reading F Paulsons post about how being a nit works for him..i decided being a nit is better than passive.

ive played a little over 15K hands...like Belgo told me its a small sample size ..but i feel very comfortable in FR than i do in 6 max.

when u hit your TPTK and u get re raised ...USUALLY your beat..so fold..u have to ..even if its hard..usually they hit a set...also bet big as to not give ppl odds to chase draws even though they will no matter what you bet..so make sure your getting paid for your hands.

GL bud

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Umm.. you don't want value bets to get called while you're holding the nuts? OP my suggestion would be to disregard's Patty's suggestion (it sounds like tournament strategy being recommended for a cash table imo).

Not sure if you're playing 6max. or FR but it sounds like FR. Get on the 6max tables... and take some time with table selection (although sometimes just starting up a new one is also a good idea as the newer fish will school towards the new table instead of even sitting on a wait list being the first one on it). For table selection it's easiest to just use an auto table finder. If you go looking, for sure you will find many 6max tables with tons of action on them.... TONS!!