Are micro stakes beatable?

I play allot of micro/low stakes, and I can do well in them, but it seems if i stay too long, I will inevitably loose to a river card or because so many callers limp in (even if I raise a substantial amount) with live hands and hit 2 pair, like A6 of a flop of A96 vs. my AJs. Players play so wide of a range you really don't know what has hit them or not. What kind of BR would justify micro and be able to handle the swings? At what point would you move up? Also is it better to play micro SNG vs. micro cash with a limited BR? C-bets don't seems to work as much in micro except against the tightest players. Even if you float they will hang on with A or K high. Is it better to play limit vs. NL in micro? Some real Micro strategy would help, thank you!:icon_bigs

luckytokenz said:

I play allot of micro/low stakes, and I can do well in them, but it seems if i stay too long, I will inevitably loose to a river card or because so many callers limp in (even if I raise a substantial amount) with live hands and hit 2 pair, like A6 of a flop of A96 vs. my AJs. Players play so wide of a range you really don't know what has hit them or not. What kind of BR would justify micro and be able to handle the swings? At what point would you move up? Also is it better to play micro SNG vs. micro cash with a limited BR? C-bets don't seems to work as much in micro except against the tightest players. Even if you float they will hang on with A or K high. Is it better to play limit vs. NL in micro? Some real Micro strategy would help, thank you!:icon_bigs

Click to expand...

I can maybe 2 problems.
1. You are not a winning player so your not running bad.
2. You are not putting in enough hands to overcome the variance involved in poker.

http://www.pokervariancesimulator.fr/
Have a play around with this. If you have a win rate of 2 BB/100, You are not guarenteed to have 1700 dollars in your account after 100k hands.

The worse your win rate the worse it can get.

The way you are saying that you can switch from SnG's to cash to LHE tells me that you are a jack of all trades and master of none. Pick one game and really learn it, Play until you have enough of a bankroll where it doesn't matter how you go learning a new game.

all stakes are beatable

TheWall said:

all stakes are beatable

Click to expand...

But I guess it will depend on what u have set as a target?

Doubt u could pack in the day job playing micro stakes?

Micro games are def. beatable.
From what I`ve experienced you only play premium hands ,or make a move from the button.
Low stakes generally call with a wide range of hands and pursuit all kind off draws to the river.
You can`t bluff away top kicker and they play Ace rag as if it`s AA.
Play solid and don`t try to bluff with AK when you don`t hit, caus even a low pair will call you down to the river.
Just my 2 cents.

Micros stakes are totally beatable, and you should have a substantially greater win rate there than at any other level.

I think that maybe you're not playing correctly. With a hand like A/A you want to bet enough to only get one or two callers. With three or four callers your one pair is in deep trouble post-flop.
I looooove calling tight players with hands like 4/4, because I can fold easily post flop, but if I hit I can often stack them with my set vs their over pair or their top-pair/top-kicker.

Over the long run, when you keep getting it in good you'll win. Just don't pay people off.


SO YOU WANT TO BE A CASH GAME PLAYER

SO YOU WANT TO BE A WINNING CASH GAME PLAYER

As far as S&G's, a lot of people don't play them properly. They don't understand the various stages and how hand values increase and decrease according to your M and position.

luckytokenz said:

like A6 of a flop of A96 vs. my AJs.

Click to expand...

im not sure raising a bunch of limpers with AJs is such a good play, that hand plays pretty well multiway, so id prolly just limp in a try to hit a flush, or something similar. its not a bad play i guess, but a differant way to play the hand, keeping the pot a bit smaller, adds a bit of deception (not that its really needed in micro) by keeping it small you may only lose a few $$ instead of a whole buy in.

its tough to know how to help when we have no idea how you play, so i guess just hang in there, pay attention to patterns and take advantage of their mistakes postflop. most of the time once you have a guy pegged, he may as well just show his cards face up, some bet pot when they have a big hand, then bet really small with a weak one..

solid fundimental poker will win at these levels thats for sure.

one last thing, which i know is hard when building a bankroll and something i had to deal with.. dont get too results orientated, concentrate on your decision making, not with if your up and down, and i promise you will do better.. ;D

I am not much of a cash player (2k hands of 1/2c for the Take 2, up $6), but I would say play SnGs if you have like $50 or less. With $50 you are barely bankrolled for 2NL and imo the micro SnGs have less variance. Of course you have to watch out for the "donks". On FT the 90 person 1.10 double stack SnGs are cheap and win one of those its 20x your buyin.

I pretty much only play at carbon but I have managed to grind out a small profit in micro games. The variance is worse at micro because of loose players but I have managed to make about 1k in last 2 years after being a slightly losing player for first 2 years.I have changed my strategy over that time from ultra conservative to tag and I also aggressively bet my best draws when the opportunity allows me to.

The biggest trick for keeping your winning streaks higher than your losing streaks is to be able to fold big hands to lively boards.In cash games this is a must.Poker is a game of situations and you need to be capable of slowing down a decision to go over how the hand was played by your opponent from post flop to where you are needing to make the decision.

definitely beatable. the donks and fishes wil just feed u cash non stop. nvm if u get outdrawn, it meant they got in with the worst hand anyway. just keep making right decisions, dont play dominated hands, dont try to bluff the donks and fishes, and u'll see results soon.

i recommend u do not try any of the HSP stuns until u are at nl200 at least. just ABC poker, dont play smart alec

luckytokenz said:

I play allot of micro/low stakes, and I can do well in them, but it seems if i stay too long, I will inevitably loose to a river card or because so many callers limp in (even if I raise a substantial amount) with live hands and hit 2 pair, like A6 of a flop of A96 vs. my AJs. Players play so wide of a range you really don't know what has hit them or not. What kind of BR would justify micro and be able to handle the swings? At what point would you move up? Also is it better to play micro SNG vs. micro cash with a limited BR? C-bets don't seems to work as much in micro except against the tightest players. Even if you float they will hang on with A or K high. Is it better to play limit vs. NL in micro? Some real Micro strategy would help, thank you!:icon_bigs

Click to expand...

You say that people will hang on with A or K high, but you seem to indicate that sometimes you lose big with a single pair of aces. Make sure that you're not hanging on too hard to top pair! If you can't shake them when you've got an ace, consider that they might have a better hand than you like you said.

Of course micro/low stakes are beatable. Just about everyone starts out that way. There have been many, many articles and stories of high stakes players starting out with $50 bucks at the lowest levels and progressing to the nose bleed limits.

yes, they are very beatable.. its good to go in with nothing more than a dollar or 2, and to just play it like a final table... thats about the best you can ask for in a room with such low stakes.. just try to win a couple coin flips and get your stack up high enough to start pushing people around.. ive noticed once you reach a high enough stack for a certain room, people respect you more and will fold more weak aces than normal

I feel your frustration, Lucky. The advice so far is pretty much on the money.

The key to this (and any) level of play is to understand who you are up against and adjust your play accordingly. At the micros you need to understand that you are mostly against level one players on whom your fancy plays are completely lost. If they hit second pair medium kicker any amount of check raising isn't going to shift them. They won't have noticed that you have folded 20 hands PF then come out with a raise; when faced with a turn bet they aren't thinking back through the hand to figure what you have; they aren't working out pot odds for their draw.

My two tips for playing micros:

1. In general, don't bluff.
2. If you hit a genuine hand bet hard to take pot/thin the field.

That said, you need to remember that not all micro players are idiot calling stations - if you find a decent player at your table play them accordingly. Also, sometimes the idiot calling station has the nuts.


I had a great example of having to adjust play depending on the opponent during a £3 SnG last night. Two players were limping every hand and calling down anything but massive bets to the showdown. Both were soon down to about 5BB and were still calling. For a few orbits it felt as if the other seven of us were just waiting for these two donks to run out of chips - no-one seemed too bothered at getting the chips in their stack, we just wanted them to leave them somewhere on the table. When they busted the mood of the game changed - indeed, the message appeared in the chatbox 'anyone wanna play poker?'

swrittenb said:

You say that people will hang on with A or K high, but you seem to indicate that sometimes you lose big with a single pair of aces. Make sure that you're not hanging on too hard to top pair! If you can't shake them when you've got an ace, consider that they might have a better hand than you like you said.

Click to expand...

Yes sadly I have to admit, my biggest loosing type hand is ONE pair. I don't know how to put them on a set of hand ranges because they are so unpredictable. Generally, from my experience, they will play any broadway, suited connector, and pair. I win the most on 2 pair , trips, and straights. Flushes don't even do the best, right in the middle. BTW, I took a quick look at icemonkey's cash game pdf , and it looks very good. Thanks for that Savage, I will continue to study the articles. I have tons of books as well, any advice on best NLHE micro books? What would be the best way to study these books.

PS. I have a hud as well, and leakbuster package, but i have only 7000 hands on cash vs. 25-35000 on tournies, so alot of data is N/A.

Harrington on Holdem vol 1-3, Phil Gordon's Little Green/Blue book, all the 2p2 books

I think the biggest problem with micro would be moving up above them. When you play micro you are playing mostly against people that are learning and or don;t make money at it enough to have moved up. Once you leave this realm I feel you are going to find people that use software tools to help them. people that pay attention to what is going on and people who have a lot more money than you do.

Of course I am sure even at $1/2 they still play like some do in micros.

luckytokenz said:

Yes sadly I have to admit, my biggest loosing type hand is ONE pair. I don't know how to put them on a set of hand ranges because they are so unpredictable. Generally, from my experience, they will play any broadway, suited connector, and pair. I win the most on 2 pair , trips, and straights. Flushes don't even do the best, right in the middle. BTW, I took a quick look at icemonkey's cash game pdf , and it looks very good. Thanks for that Savage, I will continue to study the articles. I have tons of books as well, any advice on best NLHE micro books? What would be the best way to study these books.

PS. I have a hud as well, and leakbuster package, but i have only 7000 hands on cash vs. 25-35000 on tournies, so alot of data is N/A.

Click to expand...

If you find it tough to put them on ranges (admittedly very hard at micro stakes), play your top pair a little more cautiously and don't worry that you'll sometimes throw away the best hand. If you play better OVERALL and don't hit those situations where you stack off with top pair against some unlikely hand, you'll probably be happier and more profitable in the long run.

WiZZiM said:

im not sure raising a bunch of limpers with AJs is such a good play

Click to expand...

I beg to differ, are you saying that in the example where he gets beaten by A6 that raising pf and getting someone to get more money in when their behind is a bad play?? B/c a limper with A6 will call you every time at the micros when you raise, i guarantee it, are you the same kind of poster who thinks AK is 'overvalued' b/c it's only ace high??

To the op: the micros are easy peasy to beat, at least 5nl and 10nl anyways, just really work on the absolute basics, play super tight from EP, open up from late, work on knowing when to play the speculative sc's and small-mid PP's and smash people up when they min-raise pre and you can get to a flop for 10c when the effective stacks are like 150BB+

Read Professional No Limit holdem, i can't remember who its by but its a class book and one which has paid itself off many times over for me, the way i see it, the micro's are all about sizing your bets pf and on the flop so that you can make a less than potsize shove on the turn or river and take peoples stacks, obv against the right type of villain and all that but this strategy works a treat with the fishies and theyre the ones you want to know how to crush, exploiting the TAGfish regs can come later.

Also, and this comes from personal exp, one of the most important things you need to have at the micros is a lot of patience and perseverance, i know for a fact that i cant beat 10nl but my patience and tilt has stopped me for a long time, people will suck out on you a lot with the most random and stupid draws ever, you've just got to suck it up and get on with it.

Gl man, and if you ever wanna ask any questions feel free to pm me and i'll try and give you some advice if i can

I play most of my poker at the micro ring games and i am a winning player be that small slow and steady .

When im playing i try and stick to these rules.

1)Do not try and bluff
2)keep the pot small unless u have the nuts
3)Fold a lot of hands
4)patiance

The 1 thing in the micro tables is that your potential of winning a nice pot when u have the best hand is very high.so wait till that hand and they will give u the cash.

PS:If the table is not working for u then leave and find 1 that is.

Good luck

Lazmansa

brett987 said:

i disagree there hard because the people are so dumb and just go all in almost every hand...also in this they put you all in and you just have to pray

Click to expand...

like...whatever!

If you study hard, work on your game, and can learn to pick yourself back up when variance makes you fall, then its simple to beat 5&10nl, very simple, can't speak for any higher than that as of yet but 5&10nl are 100% beatable, without a shadow of a doubt.

Firstly, you need to choose a good table. Enough tight players that you have the potential to bluff your way out of a tight spot, but enough loose players that you will get action on your premium hands. I know that doesn't look like it makes sense, but Obv dont bluff the aggro donkeys and over-bet the penny pinchers...pick your spots!
If i'm only rolled for the micro's (quite often at the moment!) then I tend to play a tight hit-and-run strategy. I sit down with a medium stack, say $1 or $1.50 in the $0.01/$0.02 games, wait for premium hands and bet as much as I think I'll get action on. If at any point i'm over $2, I'll just wait for the blinds to reach me, leave the table, and buy back in at another for minimum/average stack again.
This strategy doesn't allow you to get much of a feel for your opponents, but at these stakes that isn't much to worry about.
Hit-and-runs are great for players who complain about 'being up a bit, then losing it all to a mediocre hand'. It protects your winnings, only keeping your buy-in on the table for much of the time. If you do go broke, its only the buck from your starting stack, not a few dollars you've built up over an hour or so.
Once you've tightened your game up and plugged any leaks, and headed to higher levels, its much better to pick a table and grind than double up over a couple of hands and leave. The opponents are better and there is more on the table to lose if you come unstuck. For the micro's though...hit n run all the way.
As far as a bankroll, it depends who you ask. Strictly speaking, your meant to have around 50 maximum buy-in's for the stakes your at, which means for the 1/2cent tables, $2 buy in...$100 bankroll.
To be honest, I wouldn't worry too much about that. Your on the bottom rung currently and I would assume able to deposit if you need to? $50 would be a comfortable start while you grind these limits, but if you can re-load then dont worry about the BRM, just master your trade and impliment BRM at the 0.05/0.10 tables in a couple of months time.