Micro 6max Study Group

There was another thread about this, but I'm gonna try and get one going again.

Let's talk about constant 3 betters. Since moving up to 25nl, it has become a major nuisance. I'm not talking about the 48/38 guys with a 3 bet of 20%. Those guys are pretty easy to beat. I'm talking about the standard TAG with a 24/20 and 3bet of 10%. What is the best way to deal with these guys when they are somewhere to your left. The easiest way is to obviously move tables, but if anybody plays on Merge now, you know that's not the easiest option.

Example, I open AJs from MP, they 3 bet on the button. You basically know they are 3betting light most of the time here, but where do you draw the line? Calling sucks, as you miss often and c/f which will bleed money. You can 4 bet which can suck if you get shoved on. Same thing with MPPs. I open 77,88,99 and get 3 bet. Is it ever profitable to call and setmine? I can't think it would be as he is 3betting wide, so even if you do hit your set, you're OOP and you probably won't get paid off since he range is wider.

The choices are easier if you have QQ+, but it doesn't happen nearly enough. Sometimes if I get 3 bet from these guys out of the blinds, and have a blocker hand, I will 4bet light and pick up the money right there. I'm still not sure if this is the best plan though.

Obv I'm in, but would like to hear some opinions on how to deal with the situation
(b4 C9 posts it)
Opponent's 3-bet Percentage Required to 4-bet/call off preflop for 100bb's.
* KK+: Good against any range
* QQ: vs 3% or higher
* JJ: vs 6.5% or higher
* TT: vs 8.5% or higher
* 99: vs 10.5% or higher
* 88: vs 12.5% or higher
* 77: vs 14% or higher
* AKs: vs 3% or higher
* AQs: vs 8% or higher
* AJs: vs 13% or higher
* AKo: vs 5% or higher
* AQo: vs 9% or higher

For guys who 3b light IP, I like sticking to these guidelines. But I'm not at 25 yet, so these may not be 100% correct for higher stakes

Those numbers are correct regardless of the stakes.

It works out regardless of the makeup of that %3 range, or villain's fold to 4bet%, or anything else.

If he 3bets the top %3 of hands ONLY, then you still profit (punch it into pokerstove). If he 3bets all air and folds %100 to 4bets, then it's still profitable to 4bet/stack because of all the dead money he leaves on the table.

There's quite a bit of 3bet/4bet material here on CC but I might write something up if it garners enough interest.

I'm 100% for Chuck writing up something on this

casinopig said:

24/20 and 3bet of 10% these guys are the hadeste to play , change tabel. or start to 4bet them with hands u wanna stack off with 77plus and AJ+ or total bluff 4bet.
but at 25NL they are simply a waste of time playing , play donks that best for your bankeoll

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oh obv, why didnt we ever think of this????

You need to get a handle on what kind of hands they are 3-betting from what positions. A lot of these guys 3-bet more from the blinds and only 3-bet value hands on the button. Some are 3-betting a polarized range and some are 3-betting a wide value range.

Basically, playing 3-bet pots OOP with 88 sucks, so you should mostly be folding.

If they're 3-betting a polarized range, flat with hands that play well postflop even OOP, that includes your nut range QQ+/AK down to hands like AJs/KQs. If they're 3-betting a merged range, you can 4-bet and get it in based on the chart above.

Ok, if I'm reading it right, I open TT, 9% guy 3 bets, I 4bet, he jams, I can snap it off and be profitable long run?

Casinopig, I try and avoid having them on my left, but table selection isn't what it was on Full Tilt/Pokertars. And fish are getting farther and fewer in between. I am basically having to either play against 90% regs, or not play at all.

billdogg said:

Ok, if I'm reading it right, I open TT, 9% guy 3 bets, I 4bet, he jams, I can snap it off and be profitable long run?

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Yep. It may be possible to flat and play a 3bet pot more profitably, but the idea is that 4bet/stacking will be profitable regardless. Assuming 100bb effective obviously. Problem is that playing 3bet pots is difficult. 4bet/stacking requires no skill. Just 4bet and snap it.

What is your guys' min hand sample size to trust a stat like 3 bet%? I mean obv is you see someone showdown A3s from the blinds/BU you know what they are capable of...

Is this a good place to discuss calling ranges against specific opponents in position? I've sorted my opening range but calling range is one of my greatest doubts currently.

Nits I prefer to either 3bet a polarized range or just fold. But what would you call regs (25/22 24/20 kind of guys) when they are MP or CO? And fish? Just big hands?

brank said:

What is your guys' min hand sample size to trust a stat like 3 bet%? I mean obv is you see someone showdown A3s from the blinds/BU you know what they are capable of...

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bump

and also 100% wanting Chuck to make a post about it

3bet % isnt the only factor at play when deciding to do something like this

Keiju said:

3bet % isnt the only factor at play when deciding to do something like this

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go on.......

Bump^^^^^.

I would like to talk about floating.What kind of villain\board texture are optimal for this move.What stats are we looking for to complete this move.
Example
1)villain is in the CO raises 3x VP$IP 26/PFR 20/AG 3.We on the button with 44 we flat.Board comes A 9 3.Villain c-bets 1\2 pot we look he c\bets flops 80% of the time,but cbets only 40% of the time is this a prime example of a float?
I would put in more examples but yall get the point i'm just looking for the correct stats\board to complete this play.Also should we play it different if we have very little value has to be compared to 100% complete air?

High cbet/low turn cbet, one and done type guys.
Have a plan for the hand, you going to bet or going to raise a double or check back if x hits turn or w.e.! Dont just float randomly because you'll just eat cbets and fold turns.
Floating with equity is important but not essential vs some players
Board textures that hit your perceived range so like KJ4 in your example would be one as your going to be flatting broadway type hands here etc.

sub

Cafeman31 said:

sub

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enlightening

JOEBOB69 said:

enlightening

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OK, in your example above on the Axxr, he might pot control an Arag on the turn, so floating with the intention of taking it on the turn MIGHT require a river barrel too. I only say this because I see a lot of c/c @ 25nl with A5 and sh1t on the turn in this kind of spot ... !!! Heart sinking stuff when all you've got is a failed move, pocket 4s, and no strong idea where you are in the hand.

so maybe a raise/check raise would be better on Axx than floating??? Just an idea, what do you think?

brank said:

What is your guys' min hand sample size to trust a stat like 3 bet%? I mean obv is you see someone showdown A3s from the blinds/BU you know what they are capable of...

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Gonna bump my question.


Also. What do you guys consider a high "raise flop %" in the micros to be?

brank said:

Gonna bump my question.


Also. What do you guys consider a high "raise flop %" in the micros to be?

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id probs say 500 or something min which gives abit of an indication

acky100 said:

so maybe a raise/check raise would be better on Axx than floating??? Just an idea, what do you think?

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Think about what you're repping. Do you c/r AT there?

ChuckTs said:

There's quite a bit of 3bet/4bet material here on CC but I might write something up if it garners enough interest.

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+1 to this lol. You would not believe the amount of 3betting + 4b that has been going on at 10NL recently and I don't know how to counter it effectively.

jbbb said:

+1 to this lol. You would not believe the amount of 3betting + 4b that has been going on at 10NL recently and I don't know how to counter it effectively.

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5bet light !

Nah, joking aside, I agree... the amount of 3betting is insane from some quarters. I think it's important to take a little look at your popup to see where they are 3betting from (i.e. positional 3bet %). For example, I find that some people 3bet ONLY from the SB (weird but true). Some people mainly from the BTN (smart) and some mainly from the BB (kinda smart). So, in terms of dealing with the situation, I always take a quick look at their positional 3bet stats before making a decision.

acky100 said:

so maybe a raise/check raise would be better on Axx than floating??? Just an idea, what do you think?

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We both know that you already folded PF