The Mental Game (tilt control), loose passive games, etc.

Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

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Hey everyone.


This thread is basically an attempt to write down my problems, get input/help/advice, and improve my mental game.


A little info about me, for those of you that don't know...

I have been playing live poker on/off for about 10 years. I was a fish (and still am, TBH) for most of those years. I have now transitioned back to full time play again (starting at the beginning of April). I changed the way I play starting in April. I am currently getting some coaching from two live pros, whom I respect very much. It is working.... however...


My weakest aspect is my mental game. That being said, let's make a little list of things that get me off my A-game.

  • Losing in standard spots, against loose opponents who limp call OOP. Example, we raise the BTN to 8.5 BB with whatever hand (to exploit limpers, play a pot IP against said limper(s), and outplay them postflop. Flop come Kd-3d-Jh. We Cb bluff, V calls, turn is 7d. We check back, cause we know V has a flush, it checks down to river. V does indeed show Ad-3d, and we quietly muck. Then, afterwards, I'm thinking "this guy limped for $2, called a $17 raise, with A-3s, like he is dominated so often, and goes HU OOP, flops a FD, calls, turns it, and never bets. He just checks it down, and makes no attempt to get paid off for the draw/money he invested thus far. OMG. How can I lose in a game like this?" Those are the cliffs....
  • Getting sucked out on repeatedly
  • Playing in really loose games, where we must flop monster hands to win, because every pot is MW (if I'm losing, obv)
  • Going on down swings really affects me after a few days. I just can't seem to get it through my skull not to be results-oriented in the short term. I have trouble managing/dealing with accumulated emotions.
  • Getting dealt rags for hours on end, then finally getting a great hand (AA), and getting it in pre vs A-Qo, and losing 100 BB (recent example)
  • For some strange reason, when I'm card dead, just watching the action, how people play, the strange/horrific things villains do amongst themselves tilts me a little.


So, currently, I have been break even for the entire month of June. I just haven't been able to get anything good going. I just got whacked for 2 BI yesterday, and that is really killing my motivation, mindset, etc.


So, CCers, could anyone help me deal with the ups and downs a little better? I need to put in quality hours. This month's events are pretty tough on me. I start feeling like it's impossible to win after a while. I get really depressed if I make mistakes, etc. For example, everyone has a breaking point, and it seems when I am on extended shitty runs of cards, my breaking point is coming much sooner than it would normally.


Last month was similar to this month. On the 15th of May, I was only up $200 for the month. Then, I went on a legit heater, and pounded out about $3500 in the last 2 weeks. I actually thought to myself "I will have to pay for this heater, with a downswing now" at the months end.

And, like clockwork, downswing/100 hours breakeven play ensues. I am mostly writing this in an attempt to change/improve my thinking, so I can play my best through these tough times.


If I can just master the mental game, and play well even when I'm running bad, I'll really have something. I have made major improvement in my mental game as of late, but to be honest, my mental game is still total crap. It's clearly way ahead of your average rec player, but still bad nonetheless.


I am going to play today in a few hours, and I would certainly like to be able to play perfect poker.


Any/all suggestions would be appreciated. Live poker is slow, heaters/downswings seem to last a while, and it's tough for me.
 
6

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Two things that I find helpful:

1) Be prepared to lose a few buyins at the start of your session. Tell yourself that you're properly bankrolled and losing shouldn't be a problem. Don't expect to win and don't depend upon winning this specific session to pay your bills. You'll win in the long-run if you make correct decisions. Short-term results are irrelevant. Don't even discuss short-term results with anyone. If anyone asks "how did you go tonight?" just give them a general answer like "I played pretty well" and leave out how much you won/lost that session because that information is irrelevant.

2) Laugh it off when you hear broken logic at the poker table. Even join in just for a bit of fun. You see someone flat-call a raise with AA, get into a multiway pot and then lose to 2 pair and start a tantrum about how unlucky they are? Sympathise with them! "You played it perfectly bro, you just got unlucky". Feed their ego. Let them think that they're good players. It will give you something to laugh about afterwards. There's no need to tell them how awful they are. If you hear someone say something like "I only called your raise because I was short-stacked", completely unaware of the fact that a shorter stack should mean a tighter range, just join in and say "that makes a lot of sense bro, I'd be calling raises with Queen Ten offsuit if I was short-stacked too. You did nothing wrong". I like to pretend to be retarded when I'm playing at a 1/2 table. It just loosens up my mood and gives me something to laugh about afterwards.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Two things that I find helpful:

1) Be prepared to lose a few buyins at the start of your session. Tell yourself that you're properly bankrolled and losing shouldn't be a problem. Don't expect to win and don't depend upon winning this specific session to pay your bills. You'll win in the long-run if you make correct decisions. Short-term results are irrelevant. Don't even discuss short-term results with anyone. If anyone asks "how did you go tonight?" just give them a general answer like "I played pretty well" and leave out how much you won/lost that session because that information is irrelevant.

2) Laugh it off when you hear broken logic at the poker table. Even join in just for a bit of fun. You see someone flat-call a raise with AA, get into a multiway pot and then lose to 2 pair and start a tantrum about how unlucky they are? Sympathise with them! "You played it perfectly bro, you just got unlucky". Feed their ego. Let them think that they're good players. It will give you something to laugh about afterwards. There's no need to tell them how awful they are. If you hear someone say something like "I only called your raise because I was short-stacked", completely unaware of the fact that a shorter stack should mean a tighter range, just join in and say "that makes a lot of sense bro, I'd be calling raises with Queen Ten offsuit if I was short-stacked too. You did nothing wrong". I like to pretend to be retarded when I'm playing at a 1/2 table. It just loosens up my mood and gives me something to laugh about afterwards.


Thanks for this man. It does help too...

I do tell people sometimes "oh yeah, you have to call there" even if I know it's terrible, etc. I do sympathize with people also. I learned a few years ago to never help opponents improve.


I am working on being less results-oriented, but it's tough when I have 100 hours of break even poker.
 
Beanfacekilla

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This is exactly what I'm talking about....

8. HJ. ($215) 9c-9s. Limpers. We limp. BB raises to $19, 3c, we call. Flop 10-10-10. Checks to us, we bet $35, only 1c (UTG), and he is AI for exactly $35. Turn A, river 2. We roll, this guy takes 5 mississippis to roll over A-2o. (-$54)

So this guy has $54 stack. He limps, a bunch limp (myself included, to set mine only, table loose and sticky preflop). So, after the flop, when PFR checks it, and a bunch of others check, we have the best hand here a bunch. We bet, smallish, but we are betting for value.

Here's this guy, and as soon as the action gets to him, no thought whatsoever, in the rest of his chips go.

This shit is what I'm talking about. How bad can you play a hand? OMG, where to start. Then, he is so dumb, it takes his brain 5 seconds to determine he has the best hand? Like 3 or 4 seconds at least after he recognized my cards, before he sheepishly rolls his hand.


Rant over. Thanks for reading.
 
Beanfacekilla

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10. BB ($198) Kd-Kh. 1L, UTG+1 raises to $12, 4c. We 3b to $60, 1 guy AI for $40ish, another lady tank calls on BTN ($90 back). Flop comes 10c-6c-5c. We shove, and put lady all in. She just shrugs, tanks for 10 seconds, and puts her money in. Turn 2h, river 3d. We roll, lady rolls 2s-2c for a set OTT. (-$150)

And another....


Need I say more? I'm done for the day.
 
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poker is a game of patience. if you don't have it at the time and don't have to grind take a break.
 
quick

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Hey everyone.


This thread is basically an attempt to write down my problems, get input/help/advice, and improve my mental game.


A little info about me, for those of you that don't know...

I have been playing live poker on/off for about 10 years. I was a fish (and still am, TBH) for most of those years. I have now transitioned back to full time play again (starting at the beginning of April). I changed the way I play starting in April. I am currently getting some coaching from two live pros, whom I respect very much. It is working.... however...


My weakest aspect is my mental game. That being said, let's make a little list of things that get me off my A-game.
  • Losing in standard spots, against loose opponents who limp call OOP. Example, we raise the BTN to 8.5 BB with whatever hand (to exploit limpers, play a pot IP against said limper(s), and outplay them postflop. Flop come Kd-3d-Jh. We Cb bluff, V calls, turn is 7d. We check back, cause we know V has a flush, it checks down to river. V does indeed show Ad-3d, and we quietly muck. Then, afterwards, I'm thinking "this guy limped for $2, called a $17 raise, with A-3s, like he is dominated so often, and goes HU OOP, flops a FD, calls, turns it, and never bets. He just checks it down, and makes no attempt to get paid off for the draw/money he invested thus far. OMG. How can I lose in a game like this?" Those are the cliffs....
  • Getting sucked out on repeatedly
  • Playing in really loose games, where we must flop monster hands to win, because every pot is MW (if I'm losing, obv)
  • Going on down swings really affects me after a few days. I just can't seem to get it through my skull not to be results-oriented in the short term. I have trouble managing/dealing with accumulated emotions.
  • Getting dealt rags for hours on end, then finally getting a great hand (AA), and getting it in pre vs A-Qo, and losing 100 BB (recent example)
  • For some strange reason, when I'm card dead, just watching the action, how people play, the strange/horrific things villains do amongst themselves tilts me a little.

So, currently, I have been break even for the entire month of June. I just haven't been able to get anything good going. I just got whacked for 2 BI yesterday, and that is really killing my motivation, mindset, etc.


So, CCers, could anyone help me deal with the ups and downs a little better? I need to put in quality hours. This month's events are pretty tough on me. I start feeling like it's impossible to win after a while. I get really depressed if I make mistakes, etc. For example, everyone has a breaking point, and it seems when I am on extended shitty runs of cards, my breaking point is coming much sooner than it would normally.


Last month was similar to this month. On the 15th of May, I was only up $200 for the month. Then, I went on a legit heater, and pounded out about $3500 in the last 2 weeks. I actually thought to myself "I will have to pay for this heater, with a downswing now" at the months end.

And, like clockwork, downswing/100 hours breakeven play ensues. I am mostly writing this in an attempt to change/improve my thinking, so I can play my best through these tough times.


If I can just master the mental game, and play well even when I'm running bad, I'll really have something. I have made major improvement in my mental game as of late, but to be honest, my mental game is still total crap. It's clearly way ahead of your average rec player, but still bad nonetheless.


I am going to play today in a few hours, and I would certainly like to be able to play perfect poker.


Any/all suggestions would be appreciated. Live poker is slow, heaters/downswings seem to last a while, and it's tough for me.

Like you I was a fish for most of the off/on ten or so odd so years I've been playing (mostly online). Once I started getting more serious, I got a lot better, started winning more, and overall started enjoying the game on a higher level.

That said I have definitely experienced some of the mental/emotional concerns during play that you are experiencing. You just have to accept the way the cards fall; but make sure you review the big loss hands to see if there was anything you could have done differently, learn from it. Be ok with it when it's just a bad beat or suckout. It happens. It took me a long time to accept that and even now I still sometimes tilt a little when people call insanely big bets and catch on one outers.

I find I tilt still online but never live. Something about the chat box just brings up an inner donk rage sometimes. Especially like you said when you sit back and watch a bad player keep winning and you wonder why. I still fall into the tilt chat trap online and start telling a player how to play or berate them or complain. Then I take a step back and wonder what the hell am I doing. I'd never do that live, why am I doing it behind a keyboard wasting energy, tilting myself, and putting negative emotion into my game. It's silly really when you think about it.

Basically think before you act/react. I mean you've described a lot of tables and players I've played at/with. And you wonder how the hell do they just check their massive hand and not value bet, how do they let others get cheap cards and STILL win. Yet turn around and call 2x pot bets on every street to catch their 2 outer and win. How can they be so bad but win so much, that should be me not them. And when you have these thoughts be aware of how you feel. I felt myself tensing up just writing the above sentences, acknowledge that feeling, accept it's not something you have to react to and move on. It's STILL hard to accept sometimes and I still chat box rage or get tilted but I remind myself these really bad players are good for the game and good for our bankrolls.

Long term you want to be mentally shaking your head laughing inside at how beautifully bad these players are and how sticking to your game will exploit that.

Also another user said, go into sessions mentally prepared to lose. Obviously you don't want to go in expecting to lose, no. But you want to be accepting and OK with losing a few BIs. If you get tilted off losing 1-2 BIs in a session you're playing too high.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Like you I was a fish for most of the off/on ten or so odd so years I've been playing (mostly online). Once I started getting more serious, I got a lot better, started winning more, and overall started enjoying the game on a higher level.

That said I have definitely experienced some of the mental/emotional concerns during play that you are experiencing. You just have to accept the way the cards fall; but make sure you review the big loss hands to see if there was anything you could have done differently, learn from it. Be ok with it when it's just a bad beat or suckout. It happens. It took me a long time to accept that and even now I still sometimes tilt a little when people call insanely big bets and catch on one outers.

I find I tilt still online but never live. Something about the chat box just brings up an inner donk rage sometimes. Especially like you said when you sit back and watch a bad player keep winning and you wonder why. I still fall into the tilt chat trap online and start telling a player how to play or berate them or complain. Then I take a step back and wonder what the hell am I doing. I'd never do that live, why am I doing it behind a keyboard wasting energy, tilting myself, and putting negative emotion into my game. It's silly really when you think about it.

Basically think before you act/react. I mean you've described a lot of tables and players I've played at/with. And you wonder how the hell do they just check their massive hand and not value bet, how do they let others get cheap cards and STILL win. Yet turn around and call 2x pot bets on every street to catch their 2 outer and win. How can they be so bad but win so much, that should be me not them. And when you have these thoughts be aware of how you feel. I felt myself tensing up just writing the above sentences, acknowledge that feeling, accept it's not something you have to react to and move on. It's STILL hard to accept sometimes and I still chat box rage or get tilted but I remind myself these really bad players are good for the game and good for our bankrolls.

Long term you want to be mentally shaking your head laughing inside at how beautifully bad these players are and how sticking to your game will exploit that.

Also another user said, go into sessions mentally prepared to lose. Obviously you don't want to go in expecting to lose, no. But you want to be accepting and OK with losing a few BIs. If you get tilted off losing 1-2 BIs in a session you're playing too high.


Thanks bro for this. I'm glad you took the time to write it.


As far as the money is concerned, I don't have to worry about bankroll (at least now). The thing that happens to me is I accumulate emotions on extended bad runs. It's usually just how I'm losing that tilts me, not the money so much.


I got my self together, drove over to Motor City Casino, and I'm playing right now. Feeling way better. Talked with my mentors, all is well. Gonna grind for a few hours now.


I haven't made any mistakes yet today. I'm gonna try and keep it that way.
 
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Bean, I understand your frustration. I've experienced most of the things you are saying. I actually posted a similar thread to yours just yesterday.

Poker is a really swingy game, and we just have to learn to cope with it. No matter how good you are, you will experience long stretches of breakeven and downswings at time. And live, it probably must feel like an eternity.

People play very badly, especially live. But you should be happy that they are. Because if they didn't, who would you make your money from? The rake is absolute killer, and if everyone were decent, it'd be hard to make profit. I'd be happy to play against those types of players at my tables. Sure, getting sucked out on by retards sucks. But they will screw up a lot, and gift us their money.

Just wondering, does it ever get better for you? After playing that long? I still get really frustrated at times when I run super cold, lose coin flips over and over, and keep getting sucked out on in multiple all-ins while my hand is way ahead of theirs. I think it's gotten a little better for me, but sometimes it feels like it eats away at me. There's only so much you can take before it starts to affect you. I don't have issues with tilt anymore, and I still play my A/A- game (which is really good). I don't slip into my B or C game anymore, and don't begin to make moves with light 3-bets/barrels like I used to. But it really does drain me emotionally.
 
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Beanfacekilla

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@ minh...

Yeah it gets better. Read "The Mental Game of Poker" by Jared Tendler.

There is this concept called inchworm. I feel like I shouldn't discuss anymore, because I will do a disservice to the author. It's a great book.


But yes, my game in its entirety, has become 10x better in last 3 months with coaching, and working on my mental game every day.
 
TimovieMan

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Yeah it gets better. Read "The Mental Game of Poker" by Jared Tendler.
Tommy Angelo's Elements of Poker also comes highly recommended. It's not a book that's going to contain much help in reducing tilt issues, but it's the kind of poker book that reduces tilt just by reading it.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Tommy Angelo's Elements of Poker also comes highly recommended. It's not a book that's going to contain much help in reducing tilt issues, but it's the kind of poker book that reduces tilt just by reading it.



Thanks man. I'll take a look soon.
 
TimovieMan

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I have a signed copy from when Elements of Poker was just released (in 2008). To give an indication on its contents, this was what Tommy Angelo wrote in it:

To Timothy (aka TimovieMan)

Remember - to win at poker
you have to be very good
at losing.

Tommy
 
Mr Sandbag

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This is exactly what I'm talking about....

8. HJ. ($215) 9c-9s. Limpers. We limp. BB raises to $19, 3c, we call. Flop 10-10-10. Checks to us, we bet $35, only 1c (UTG), and he is AI for exactly $35. Turn A, river 2. We roll, this guy takes 5 mississippis to roll over A-2o. (-$54)

I don't mean to miss the entire point of the thread, but I can't imagine too many scenarios where I'm overlimping 99 pre. When I'm running like hell it helps to consciously focus on improving one specific aspect of my game. Often times this is my preflop game. It seems like the easiest part of the game - and it is - but it's also the simplest part to tweak. Every once in awhile I find that preflop has gradually become a bit shaky for me so I work to get it back on track.
 
Beanfacekilla

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I don't mean to miss the entire point of the thread, but I can't imagine too many scenarios where I'm overlimping 99 pre. When I'm running like hell it helps to consciously focus on improving one specific aspect of my game. Often times this is my preflop game. It seems like the easiest part of the game - and it is - but it's also the simplest part to tweak. Every once in awhile I find that preflop has gradually become a bit shaky for me so I work to get it back on track.


So what would you suggest on a table where 8 villains will call $19 opens?

Edit: my notes are from real time, but CO and BTN called also, I just didn't note that.
 
Mr Sandbag

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Raise bigger. It makes post flop play weird because the pot gets inflated quickly, but you gotta remember they're the ones making mistakes if they call $25 with 87s, Q9, KT, etc. We're just getting tons of value.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Raise bigger. It makes post flop play weird because the pot gets inflated quickly, but you gotta remember they're the ones making mistakes if they call $25 with 87s, Q9, KT, etc. We're just getting tons of value.


OK cool.
 
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I'm cool with overlimping 99, unless it's limped around to us OTB/CO. 1010+ always raising. SPR is going to be low and we are going to be OOP on a ton of crappy boards with 99 if we try to punish limpers from EP/MP.
 
Beanfacekilla

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I'm cool with overlimping 99, unless it's limped around to us OTB/CO. 1010+ always raising. SPR is going to be low and we are going to be OOP on a ton of crappy boards with 99 if we try to punish limpers from EP/MP.


I have my reasons for limping vs playing it aggressive. Mostly, it's a lower variance line, and that's why I like limping here. I can see both sides of the issue though.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Yes, another update.


I've had the last 2 days off. I went for a bike-ride both days. Friday I went by myself, and yesterday went for a 15 mile ride with my wife, Mrs. Beanfackilla. We went to dinner, watched fireworks last night in the neighboring town, had a good time. I even drank a Red Stripe when I got home at 11pm.


Now, here I am. I am going to play in a little while. I am trying to suppress the bad feelings I have about poker. When you run bad, you really start to question the game at some point.

I am really starting to wonder if the swing will change soon, or if I will continue to run bad. When will it end? Today. Yes. It may happen.



All I can do is go there, and give them my A-game. That is my intention. I will give these folks all that Beanfacekilla has to offer. That's about all I can do.


Hopefully, we get a healthy dose of run-goooooooood. However, "you can wish in one hand, and crap in the other, and see which one fills up first."
 
Beanfacekilla

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Maybe no one reads this, but whatever. Here we go...


So, the night is going ok. I am in the black over $300, and I feel I have played pretty well thus far. I did suck out (not a huge addition to stack, +$100 or so) on some dude that held A-K, and hit a Jack on the river, but I made a misread, based on history, his tendencies, what I've seen him do, etc. I thought I had him the whole way. I don't know if that makes it ok, but.....


Anyways, so we're cruising along.... and we play this hand.


32. BTN ($537) 5s-5c. CO raises to $12, we call, BB calls.

Flop 5d-9d-6h ($36ish minus rake)

Checks to CO, he bets $21, we call (yes I know, just flatting, with a FD and some goofy SDs on board, but this V is mostly unknown to me, he could have total air, and be Cb bluffing, i want to set the hook, not rip it out of his mouth) BB calls.

Turn Qs. ($95ish)

CO bets $40, at this point, I think it's very likely he has something like AA, KK, A-Q, Kd-10d, Kd-Jd, etc. So, we raise to $110, BB folds, CO calls.

River 2c ($315ish) or some brick. No straight got there, I know that. Can't recall, no straight or flush hit.

CO checks, we bet $150, CO tanks, he is talking to himself, and he calls. We roll our set, he rolls....................




Any takers? What do we put V on here? What do we think of hero's line? Is it ok?
 
TimovieMan

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Your line seems fine.

I put him on AdQd/KdQd (although I wouldn't be surprised at KK+), but the way you're wording it makes me think he has 87s instead.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Your line seems fine.

I put him on AdQd/KdQd (although I wouldn't be surprised at KK+), but the way you're wording it makes me think he has 87s instead.


Naa, he didn't have the straight.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Yeah.....



He had QQ, turned a bigger set. It took him about 3-4 seconds after I rolled my hand to turn his queens over.
 
mbrenneman0

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  • Losing in standard spots, against loose opponents who limp call OOP. Example, we raise the BTN to 8.5 BB with whatever hand (to exploit limpers, play a pot IP against said limper(s), and outplay them postflop. Flop come Kd-3d-Jh. We Cb bluff, V calls, turn is 7d. We check back, cause we know V has a flush, it checks down to river. V does indeed show Ad-3d, and we quietly muck. Then, afterwards, I'm thinking "this guy limped for $2, called a $17 raise, with A-3s, like he is dominated so often, and goes HU OOP, flops a FD, calls, turns it, and never bets. He just checks it down, and makes no attempt to get paid off for the draw/money he invested thus far. OMG. How can I lose in a game like this?" Those are the cliffs....
.
Just initial thought, I may or may not respond to this thread again in more detail later after work.

Here in this bullet, it sounds like you feel like you deserve to win because the other players are so bad. I think you should use the logic that because of varience, it is entirely possible and almost even common to have a losing session against a table full of bad fish even if you are playing your best game. If you catch yourself mentally labeling another another player as a fish, that should be a warning to you that you are at risk of this type of entitlement tilt.
 
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