Maximizing river value betting

Ok, I've been havingh issues in reference to maximizing value on my river bets.

I'll give you guys a couple of scenarios, let me know what you think.

A. Out of position, both you and villain about 80-100 bb deep, you have the absolute nuts, you put villain on a TPTK or two pair type of hand. Villain has already contributed 20-30 bb into pot. Villain's numbers are around 20/10/40 Shove or thin value bet here, say a little under 1/2 the pot?


B. In position, same scenario as above, except you think Villain is a little light, you have a set or 2 pair, you're 99% sure you have villain beat, villain checks river to you.

Shove A
Bet smallish on B (maybe as little as a single chip if I think Villain might get spewy and raise me).

WVHillbilly said:

Shove A
Bet smallish on B (maybe as little as a single chip if I think Villain might get spewy and raise me).

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Ok, makes sense. I've been betting about 1/2 pot on A, I'll start shoving, see how it works out.

On B, I've been betting light and they typically call. Say I was to min bet like you say, they raise, I come back with re-raise shove (that's what I would normally do) or a 3x or 4x raise?

Thanks for the feedback, greatly appreciated.

Kasanova King said:

Ok, makes sense. I've been betting about 1/2 pot on A, I'll start shoving, see how it works out.

On B, I've been betting light and they typically call. Say I was to min bet like you say, they raise, I come back with re-raise shove (that's what I would normally do) or a 3x or 4x raise?

Thanks for the feedback, greatly appreciated.

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When you 1st start shoving the nuts on A try not to be results oriented in that if they fold a few times remember they don't have to call that often to make shoving the more profitable play (if it's the most profitable can be debated based on board texture, your opponent, how the betting has gone, etc.). Remember with the nuts bigger bets are usually better.

In B, if you have the nuts obviously it's a reraise but if you don't there is little value in it because basically he's not bluff-raising and then calling a 3bet.

WVHillbilly said:

When you 1st start shoving the nuts on A try not to be results oriented in that if they fold a few times remember they don't have to call that often to make shoving the more profitable play (if it's the most profitable can be debated based on board texture, your opponent, how the betting has gone, etc.). Remember with the nuts bigger bets are usually better.

In B, if you have the nuts obviously it's a reraise but if you don't there is little value in it because basically he's not bluff-raising and then calling a 3bet.

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Ok, I see....so without the nuts, safest to just call a raise after a min bet in scenario B?

I'm working on the same problem. I'm winning way to many showdowns and not betting enough rivers.

I'm checking A way too much. I think I got the phrase "induce bluffs" stuck in my head and I'm trying to implement it to often.

I've been checking B as well thinking villain won't call unless he has me beat.

I have a bad combination of "checking to induce bluffs" and asking "what calls me here?". I think I'm assuming too much about my opponents. Assuming that they are more aggressive than they are in the first, and tighter in the second.

That is not Champion...

Value betting is about having a strong hand and getting the villain to call with a slightly weaker hand. In your first scenario there is still a lot of potential action so the question is more than just about the value bet. Depending on how the hand has panned out (eg did the river bring my nut flush? was there any action on flop and turn?) I'm looking for opportunities to induce a raise with a weak bet or check, or acting scared by going big, and so on.

The second scenario is about betting for value as you have the option of checking and showing down. If the board is something like AcQs8d2h7h and I've got Q8 a quarter pot bet feels right to me: we are often getting called by a big ace, and smaller 2 pair but if the villain comes back really big we can lay down to all the sets and bigger 2 pairs. If they min raise then a call is probably good here.

I have fallen into seldom betting on the river. I think it's because I've been getting hammered on the river, when I do not have the nuts. (One so seldom has the nuts....) I know it's results-oriented thinking, but a lengthy series of ouches are hard to overlook.

It just seems safer to check the river and see if my 2 pair or low-end str8 or whatever holds up. I feel that if I've been betting them along the way and getting called, I may actually be in trouble. Sometimes, of course, my hand is fine and the other guy was just chasing.

@Double-A

i totally feel you on that, i do the same thing. but then i think there is no way that when i bet they are less likely to call me if i have the nuts and vice versa.

i think it's one of those phenomenans where you only remember the times that you bet into someone with nothing and they "ALWAYS" call you, and when you have the nuts and you bet they "NEVER" call you.

WVHillbilly said:

Shove A
Bet smallish on B (maybe as little as a single chip if I think Villain might get spewy and raise me).

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Wow...I have been shoving with A over the last few days and I'm up about 10BI at bodog...probably 5 or 6 thanks to these out of position river shoves. Working like a charm thanks to Bodog's fish. ****ing Brilliant!

Kasanova King said:

Wow...I have been shoving with A over the last few days and I'm up about 10BI at Bodog...probably 5 or 6 thanks to these out of position river shoves. Working like a charm thanks to Bodog's fish. ****ing Brilliant!

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Nice. Just remember it won't always work and sometimes betting less is better but on those really scary boards when you have the nuts or against horrible players (practically Bodog's entire player base) shoving the river is generally a great way to make a lot of $$.

On situation A, I would raise 1/3 to 1/2 the pot. If I know that the villain is aggressive, I would check it for a reraise.

On situation B, I would raise a little more than where he would have he have the odds to call with a pair.