Maniacs on low stakes tables

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enesem

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Rightnow I am playing a .02/.05 table. A player has just come in, so far VPIP every hand and is going all in with hands like 9-7.

His career earnings are near to $ 50,000.

As I type he just wen all in again with J7o.

Clearly he is just here to cause trouble.

What can you do about these idiots ?

PokerStars - €0.05 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG+2: 98.2 BB (VPIP: 42.59, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 54)
MP: 133.4 BB (VPIP: 24.07, PFR: 14.81, 3Bet Preflop: 15.79, Hands: 54)
MP+1: 184 BB (VPIP: 6.67, PFR: 4.44, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 45)
CO: 246.8 BB (VPIP: 34.29, PFR: 31.43, 3Bet Preflop: 33.33, Hands: 35)
Hero (BTN): 89.6 BB
SB: 45.6 BB (VPIP: 15.52, PFR: 10.53, 3Bet Preflop: 11.11, Hands: 59)
BB: 92.6 BB (VPIP: 22.22, PFR: 11.11, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 9)
UTG: 40 BB (VPIP: 92.31, PFR: 75.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 14)
UTG+1: 43.8 BB (VPIP: 25.93, PFR: 13.21, 3Bet Preflop: 4.55, Hands: 54)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has A:heart: A:diamond:

UTG raises to 4.8 BB, UTG+1 raises to 11.6 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 50 BB, fold, fold, UTG calls 35.2 BB and is all-in, UTG+1 calls 32.2 BB and is all-in

Flop: (129 BB, 3 players) 2:diamond: K:diamond: 9:heart:

Turn: (129 BB, 3 players) J:spade:

River: (129 BB, 3 players) 4:club:

UTG+1 shows J:heart: J:diamond: (Three of a Kind, Jacks) (Pre 17%, Flop 10%, Turn 95%)
Hero shows A:heart: A:diamond: (One Pair, Aces) (Pre 66%, Flop 81%, Turn 5%)
UTG shows 8:diamond: 8:spade: (One Pair, Eights) (Pre 17%, Flop 8%, Turn 0%)
UTG+1 wins 123.6 BB

I didn't see the JJ calling me, so that's just a bad beat, but 88, sheesh, he is all in every f***ing hand.
 
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E

enesem

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I am really annoyed about this and I suspect some collusion was going on as these two players, both from germany, just came in and completely wrecked the table. i have mailed pokerstars to complain.

Villain 1 - 55 hands, VPIP:87, PFR:65, loses 21.83, and he was all in with crap maybe 75% of his hands. This guy has nearly $50,000 career winnings.

Villain 2 - 75 hands, VPIP:44, PFR:26, wins 16.63 (534bb/100)

It looks to me like they were colluding to stink up the table. They seemed to be working together. I tried to be patient and play them like fish, I got all in twice against them, AA and KA, lost both. Typical of the way it goes for me.

Thing is, clearly not intending to take money (villain 2 did ok though) just to mess everyone up. Villain1 just kept reloading a his to 2 euros (.02/.05 are euro tables).

They both checked out of the table at the same time.

Seriously, there is no way you can work to build a stack and try to play sensibly and learn with this nonsense going on.

This can't be right, I have reported it to Pokerstars to see if they think anything was wrong.

Nightmare, I should have just left the table, though at these small stakes, if you play long enough eventually someone comes to your table and does this.

I am 2 buy ins down, and today was my new start (see the blog..)
 
etherghost

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You should be happy to see some crazies like this at your table from time to time. All you need then is a bit of patience to catch a monster and take their money. If you ask grinders at any stakes, they will tell you the same thing.
 
E

enesem

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They are now both off playing tourneys, pretty decent buy in (over 100 dollars).

Really, it wasn't pleasant, no chance to do anything. One crazy you can wait out, but two just stick it to you.

A pair of utter ******s.
 
horizon12

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What play vs maniacs you need too have lose preflop game, when he raise u need 3bet with wider range of hands А9+, KT+, QJ, 77+ ( maybe more, depending on the opponent raising range) that have showdown value. Lower pairs and small suited connectors eliminate.
Also if there in game other players, should play more tight, to withstand postflop acthion.

Do more raise for isolate (3bet) Isolate you here partly for value, but mainly to stay in hu against a weak player and make the rest of the table to fold to 3bet.
You fold example A9o a raise from early position, but you owe 3bet against a maniac.
 
E

enesem

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It wasn't that they were maniacs, ie poor players, they were deliberately throwing in huge raises with nothing, usually with both of them in play at the same time. It was very suspicious, almost like they were working together to just trample all over people learning in low stakes games.

I reported it to Pokerstars, and they felt that the play was suspicious enough to mount an investigation in to both players.

From PS support:

"Based on a preliminary review of the situation you reported, a complete review of the players involved has been initiated. This will include checking on relationships, location and play."

This was more than tough play or maniacal play, this was a deliberate attempt to intimidate and ruin an otherwise decent game.

It's the second time this has happened to me on low stakes tables - a player with high career earnings ($50,000) who usually plays higher stakes tourneys (more than $100 buy in) coming to a .02/.05 table and just pissing all over everybody with stupid aggressive bets. They lose or win a couple of buy-ins (they don't care either way) but it ruins anyone's game plan, especially those of us learning to build pots.

It's not right and it should be stopped.
 
RodneyC86

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It wasn't that they were maniacs, ie poor players, they were deliberately throwing in huge raises with nothing, usually with both of them in play at the same time. It was very suspicious, almost like they were working together to just trample all over people learning in low stakes games.

I reported it to Pokerstars, and they felt that the play was suspicious enough to mount an investigation in to both players.

From PS support:

"Based on a preliminary review of the situation you reported, a complete review of the players involved has been initiated. This will include checking on relationships, location and play."

This was more than tough play or maniacal play, this was a deliberate attempt to intimidate and ruin an otherwise decent game.

It's the second time this has happened to me on low stakes tables - a player with high career earnings ($50,000) who usually plays higher stakes tourneys (more than $100 buy in) coming to a .02/.05 table and just pissing all over everybody with stupid aggressive bets. They lose or win a couple of buy-ins (they don't care either way) but it ruins anyone's game plan, especially those of us learning to build pots.

It's not right and it should be stopped.

That cannot be, I'm shocked.

These guys are what makes some poker days a walk in the park. Sure you don't win all the time and the game is not 'enjoyable' because it becomes retardedly easy, but your wallet will fat up.

Collusion is pretty difficult to pull of in poker, especially no limit anyway. And I think if they are colluding, this is most certainly not the correct way.
 
starting_at_the_bottom

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Dude, if he is up $50k dont you think its a bit ridiculous to call him an idiot?

Furthermore, being a loose player does not automatically make them a bad player. A loose player with a solid post flop game will make more money than a TAG with a mediocre post flop game.

I expect they are two winning mid stakes regs just blowing off some steam in the micros, or perhaps just messing around/trying to get under the skin of some microstakes players. And by the tone of your posts, it has clearly worked! Think about this logically, if they have won $50k are they really going to waste their time and risk their accounts by colluding at 5nl??

Just because you do not understand their playing style does not mean it is not sound. My advice to you is find a weaker table should this happen again.
 
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LD1977

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They are probably on tilt or something.
 
H

haihai

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Just switch tables...

And why would you be mad if a maniac is on your table.? That's easy money.

And

1) colluding in online poker is harder than it seems
2) it seems they're losing money and not winning
3) i don't think joining a table and doing stupid things is illegal. Villain can go all in every hand all he wants and it's not wrong. Just switch tables
 
LD1977

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They are not up 50k shoving random crap in 5NL.
 
H

haihai

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I guess you didn't read the part about them being up $50k

I meant regarding the statistics at the mentioned table by OP.

am really annoyed about this and I suspect some collusion was going on as these two players, both from Germany, just came in and completely wrecked the table. i have mailed Pokerstars to complain.

Villain 1 - 55 hands, VPIP:87, PFR:65, loses 21.83, and he was all in with crap maybe 75% of his hands. This guy has nearly $50,000 career winnings.

Villain 2 - 75 hands, VPIP:44, PFR:26, wins 16.63 (534bb/100)


-21.83 + 16.63 = -5.2.

If they were colluding they wouldn't be down a whole BI.
 
Arjonius

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You did the right thing in reporting possible collusion.

As for staying at the table, you made a conscious decision to stay and try to win money from people who were playing a very spewy style that took the fun out of the game for you.

If they were actually colluding, they should be banned (and IMO exposed). But if they weren't, saying they shouldn't be allowed to play like they did is pretty presumptuous. What other play styles should be disallowed just because you don't like them?
 
LeeCallaghan

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lol 50k SnG wow who are these people? shit. well i guess if you call bill gates shoved it!
 
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enesem

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From PS Support:

"First allow me to apologize for the delay in responding to your report. This particular case was quite involved and more time than usual was required for the review.

We have concluded that the play of 'xxxxxxxx' and 'xxxxxx' violated the integrity of our games. It is not uncommon to find that players are not aware of the seriousness of such action in cash game play. The overall review, which included requests for explanations from the players and consideration of all account information, led us to conclude that their action was not malicious. Therefore they will be allowed to continue playing on the site. That said, we did take action to see that they do not play at the same cash game table in the future, or in the same Sit & Go Tournaments for that matter.

In addition, we have 'rolled back' hands in which they won money unfairly and redistributed the funds to the players who were cheated.

Overall, you lost $xxx to these players at the table that you might not have ordinarily lost if they had been playing fairly. I have credited this amount to your account, so that you will not have been financially disadvantaged by playing at the same table as them.

The integrity of the games at PokerStars is of paramount importance to us and we will not abide unfair play in our games. We work hard to police our games to assure our players of a fair, secure place to play. In the rare cases where collusion has actually occurred, we make sure that any players affected are compensated appropriately. Your vigilance in noticing the situation and reporting your concerns are very much appreciated, please do not hesitate to report any future suspicious instances to us.

Thank you for your continued play here on PokerStars. Please do not hesitate to let us know any time we can be of help."


Case Concluded.
 
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swingro

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enesem you did poker a service and congrats on spotting them.
 
Zorba

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What a joke that last email is from Stars, they say that they have redistributed funds to players cheated, but they are allowing the cheaters to continue to play there.

Shame poker stars Shame on you.


.
 
horizon12

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What a joke that last email is from Stars, they say that they have redistributed funds to players cheated, but they are allowing the cheaters to continue to play there.

Shame Poker Stars Shame on you.


.
So all the same money returned cheated :) Cheaters will always be, who will use illegal software, chip dumping/stack balancing, teamplay, data mining etc.
PokerStars even try to fight with cheater , that was a fair game If you do not believe big online room, imagine what is going in small where at any moment can close your account and not pay money.

Pokerstars I do not think that will cheat people, they earn good money on rake..
 
loafes

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Sounds like these were two mid stakes winning regs who decided to go have some laughs by dicking around together at the 5NL tables. Since they likely weren't deliberately colluding to make profit and because they are obviously high rake paying players pokerstars didn't really want to ban them.

If I was a pokerstars member presented with this case, I'd handle it exactly the same way.
















What other play styles should be disallowed just because you don't like them?

well I would like to disallow a nitty style from cash games but I'm fine to allow them in tournaments. I would also like to disallow any good Lag syles to be used against me and good Tag styles as well. Basically I'd just like there to be spewy styles and passive calling station styles to be at my tables. If you can arrange this I'd appreciate it :D
 
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