Losing alot in BB (bb/100)

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vis

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Sup guys,

After 30k hands I play -65bb/100 in the BB at 5NLSH. This needs to be fixed lol. My winrate fluctuates between 7-10bb/100. Also, I'm a small winner in the SB :confused:
I'm a pretty big nit in the BB, folding ~80%. Basically only have a 3bet valuerange, which is AJ+ ~99/TT+. I feel like I just don't have enough FE at this limit to mess around.
So is there something I should be looking for at HM (stats/filters/etc.), or is it just because I fold so often?

(btw: just noticed I actually do run 7 BI's -EV in the BB so that's one thing).
 
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swingro

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You are supposed to loose from BB and SB.

Here are my positional winnings from the hands I played at 10NL since I made the jump from 5Nl last week.

As you see I am loosing badly from the blinds but that is normal.
 

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swingro

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Lol I just saw that I put all my database from 2,5 and 10NL. But it does not matter. Bigger sample. Same thing applied for all the stakes.
 
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vis

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I'm aware of that but -65? thats more than both of your blinds.

Offtopic: why is ur 3betrange so tight?
 
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swingro

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I'm aware of that but -65? thats more than both of your blinds.

Offtopic: why is ur 3betrange so tight?

I do not need to balance my range because I play mostly against fish that limp or maniacs. I play 12 tables and tables select like a maniac for the sweet tables. pokerstars gives me this luxury with the easy seat option. And most people do not fold so I 3-bet mostly for value.
 
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vis

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Alright but you dont ever 3bet hands like KQ/AJ/99+ for value? Or to iso?
 
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swingro

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Alright but you dont ever 3bet hands like KQ/AJ/99+ for value? Or to iso?

Against fish that limp it is obvious to iso. But I ISO against bad player with a lot more hands. Against regs it depends of the position they are opening from. But I told you , regs are not the reason why I am at the tables. because up to 10NL that I play now there are plenty of fish to make money from, and even lots of regs are making dumb plays without me balancing my range. Imagine that I squeezed today to 15BB with Aces from the button 100BB deep, and got called by a reg from UTG. I pay attention at their Fold to 3bet percentage if the sample is over 100hands and add 1or 2 BB to the size of my 3-bet. A lot of bad regs setmine OOP against the odds or flat AK, AQ OOP. You just need to pay attention to some stats. Even if their VPIP/PFR looks decent, they are sheep dressed like wolves. They know some starting hands chart to select their starting hands but play like a fish postflop or 3-bet situations.
 
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Against fish that limp it is obvious to iso. But I ISO against bad player with a lot more hands. Against regs it depends of the position they are opening from. But I told you , regs are not the reason why I am at the tables. because up to 10NL that I play now there are plenty of fish to make money from, and even lots of regs are making dumb plays without me balancing my range. Imagine that I squeezed today to 15BB with Aces from the button 100BB deep, and got called by a reg from UTG. I pay attention at their Fold to 3bet percentage if the sample is over 100hands and add 1or 2 BB to the size of my 3-bet. A lot of bad regs setmine OOP against the odds or flat AK, AQ OOP. You just need to pay attention to some stats. Even if their VPIP/PFR looks decent, they are sheep dressed like wolves. They know some starting hands chart to select their starting hands but play like a fish postflop or 3-bet situations.
I actually meant iso3bet. For example youre on the BU with KQs, and a 40/22 OR from CO and doesnt fold alot, can't imagine your not 3betting there.
Because at 5nl on stars there's not that many limpers. It's full of fish but most of them seem to have learnt to OR.

EDIT: Funny you should say that about the regs, the sheep dressed like wolves. I was thinking about that today, sometimes I see plays and I'm like...hmkay w/e lol. Then I look at stats and see he's actually a 21/18 and therefore labeled as a "reg/solid". I guess the difference between them and the real "reg" is their lack of good handreading and therefore their more passive demeanor.
 
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I actually meant iso3bet. For example youre on the BU with KQs, and a 40/22 OR from CO and doesnt fold alot, can't imagine your not 3betting there.
Because at 5nl on stars there's not that many limpers. It's full of fish but most of them seem to have learnt to OR.
If you table select you find plenty.

About those players with 40/22 . It depends. After 20 hands for example you still do not know for sure what kind of players they are for sure. It could be TAG, or a LAG that got good cards or situatios. Maniacs have like 50+VPIP and 20+PFR. What I know is that I do not want them on my left. But if I have position on them I have the comfort to do whatever I want. Some are passive postflop, some are aggressive, some fold to 3bet some do not. Some fold to c-bet, some not. You need to adjust your play.
 
the_wonk

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Whoa. That is an insane loss rate in the bb. Obviously we shouldn't be losing more than the full bb on avg. I wonder if it's indicative of leaks when oop in general. I'd guess you're either showing down way too much or way too little when oop.
 
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If you table select you find plenty.

About those players with 40/22 . It depends. After 20 hands for example you still do not know for sure what kind of players they are for sure. It could be TAG, or a LAG that got good cards or situatios. Maniacs have like 50+VPIP and 20+PFR. What I know is that I do not want them on my left. But if I have position on them I have the comfort to do whatever I want. Some are passive postflop, some are aggressive, some fold to 3bet some do not. Some fold to c-bet, some not. You need to adjust your play.
zoom goes to fast for table select :p
 
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Whoa. That is an insane loss rate in the bb. Obviously we shouldn't be losing more than the full bb on avg. I wonder if it's indicative of leaks when oop in general. I'd guess you're either showing down way too much or way too little when oop.
Prob not a lot, I'm one of those you should be double barreling alot i guess
 
Karozi615

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invalid hand sample. However, you should defend less wide (especially in full ring games) and increase your 3bet volume. You'll maximize your fold equity which enables you to play less pots OOP. However, I would generally suggest raising the stronger end of your range in the blinds unless you have information on the villain that would suggest their raising light.
 
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swingro

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invalid hand sample. However, you should defend less wide (especially in full ring games) and increase your 3bet volume. You'll maximize your fold equity which enables you to play less pots OOP. However, I would generally suggest raising the stronger end of your range in the blinds unless you have information on the villain that would suggest their raising light.

This.
 
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vis

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invalid hand sample. However, you should defend less wide (especially in full ring games) and increase your 3bet volume. You'll maximize your fold equity which enables you to play less pots OOP. However, I would generally suggest raising the stronger end of your range in the blinds unless you have information on the villain that would suggest their raising light.
I play 6max. I actually 3bet pretty light. AJ/KQ+/~99+. But I seem to be having trouble postflop OOP, since most these guys are not folding to 1 single bet on the flop. So let's say I 3bet a 33/10 who opens from CO, he calls and flop is K73. I cbet, he calls. Turn is X and I'm in x/f-mode, since to me it it's just spew to continue here vs. these guys, even if turn is a Q.

Also, like 1% of this player pool is actually positional aware I've noticed. There's a lot of "regs" who seem to adjust a little bit getting closer to the BTN, but most of them are weaktight and still have vpip of only 20 on btn. And these guys really dont fold to 3bets.
 
the_wonk

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I play 6max. I actually 3bet pretty light. AJ/KQ+/~99+. But I seem to be having trouble postflop OOP, since most these guys are not folding to 1 single bet on the flop. So let's say I 3bet a 33/10 who opens from CO, he calls and flop is K73. I cbet, he calls. Turn is X and I'm in x/f-mode, since to me it it's just spew to continue here vs. these guys, even if turn is a Q.

Also, like 1% of this player pool is actually positional aware I've noticed. There's a lot of "regs" who seem to adjust a little bit getting closer to the BTN, but most of them are weaktight and still have vpip of only 20 on btn. And these guys really dont fold to 3bets.


ahhh, we get some clues as to your leaks here.

1) AJ/KQ/99+ (7.5%) isn't necessarily unreasonable, but it's definitely not "pretty light." a 33 vpip guy is probably opening something like 35% from the CO. that's ~ 22+, 46s+, 78o+, Ax, etc. you can raise more hands for value against this player.

2) but you're probably reticent to raise more hands because you're playing fit-or-fold postflop which is costing you a ton of money. i'd guess this is your biggest leak by far. if you raise from a blind, continuation bet the flop, and then give up every turn you're not made, it's going to be profitable for your opponents to call your flop bets with ANY TWO CARDS intending to steal when you check the turn. (think thru the pot odds of an example if this isn't abundantly clear). you can't give up that often. double barrel more (especially against wide ranges), and consider checkraising the turn, both for value and as bluffs (against stack sizes that can fold of course) more often.
 
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ahhh, we get some clues as to your leaks here.

1) AJ/KQ/99+ (7.5%) isn't necessarily unreasonable, but it's definitely not "pretty light." a 33 vpip guy is probably opening something like 35% from the CO. that's ~ 22+, 46s+, 78o+, Ax, etc. you can raise more hands for value against this player.

2) but you're probably reticent to raise more hands because you're playing fit-or-fold postflop which is costing you a ton of money. i'd guess this is your biggest leak by far. if you raise from a blind, continuation bet the flop, and then give up every turn you're not made, it's going to be profitable for your opponents to call your flop bets with ANY TWO CARDS intending to steal when you check the turn. (think thru the pot odds of an example if this isn't abundantly clear). you can't give up that often. double barrel more (especially against wide ranges), and consider checkraising the turn, both for value and as bluffs (against stack sizes that can fold of course) more often.
Wouldnt doublebarreling at 5NL in 3bet pots with so little fold equity be massive spew..?
 
the_wonk

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Wouldnt doublebarreling at 5NL in 3bet pots with so little fold equity be massive spew..?


not necessarily. pots are gorged when they're 3-bet pre, and so people are going to often call 1 bet on boards like JK5r with hands like AQ or QJ or AT that will drop to a 2nd barrel. and in a gorged pot, you can't give up post as often as i get the feeling you are.

also, one way to help fight against a positional disadvantage is by sizing smartly. size preflop so you're set up to get all-in on the flop/turn/river with reasonable bets the whole way. doing this doesn't completely negate your positional disadvantage, but it at least keeps you away from awkward spots where you have say 1.4 pots back on the river. better to have .7 pots back.

with that said, i don't honestly know how 5NL plays. i play a lot larger, and i only play live these days. fundamentals are fundamentals at all stakes and against all opps tho.
 
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Keith_MM

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to me it looks like you have some misconceptions .the positional bb/100 figure is for hands played in that position only. so in the BB you pay 100bb /100 in blinds and 50bb/100 in the SB. if you folded every hand you'd be -100 and -50 bb/100 in the BB and SB .

if these guys aren't folding to 3bets , tighten your 3bet ranges and 3bet quite a bit bigger with the premium end of your 3bet range, cut out the 3bet bluffs and play hands in position with your broadways and suited connectors. Take the aggro players to value town when they cbet and barrel their weaker ranges when you hit the flop and get out cheaply when you miss.

Defending your blinds by 3betting light is a recipe for disaster if you are doing it against players that don't fold.You give them the opportunity to play perfectly against you .You'll win small pots when they miss and likely lose big pots when they hit the flop.

It all comes back to knowing why you are 3betting.Ideally you will be 3betting with your premiums for value, as a bluff with weak hands that don't really want to see a flop with against people playing weak ranges that fold to 3bets (hands like A2-a6sand suited connectors that you can represent as a stronger hand if an A flops but also give you straight and flush outs if you do see a flop) and call with hand that can flop well but you don't really want to be playing big pots with like KQ QJ AJ AT etc.
 
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I do not need to balance my range because I play mostly against fish that limp or maniacs. I play 12 tables and tables select like a maniac for the sweet tables. Pokerstars gives me this luxury with the easy seat option. And most people do not fold so I 3-bet mostly for value.
Table selection is really an important factor, and I also not need to balance the range.
 
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