Live Grind: How to Not Fall Asleep at the Table

Matt Vaughan · Dec 7, 2012

So, since all the cool kids are doing it, I figured I'd start a cash thread. But since it seems like there's not a whole ton of live discussion on CC, I figured I'd start detailing some of my exploits to my local casino.

Quick little bit about me. I've been playing poker on and off for a long time, but started taking strategy seriously about 8-9 months ago, and tried to attack my mental game issues about 6 months ago. I turned 21 this past September and every chance I've had since then I've been playing live. I'm a full-time student, so it's sometimes hard to find the time, but hopefully I'll continue to be able to go on a frequent basis.

I play $1/$2 ($200 max BI) no limit hold'em. My experience so far has been good for the most part. First off, it's an absolute blast, and it's by far my favorite activity. I'd say I enjoy it more than online grinding, though they are very different, and suit me better when I'm in different moods, if that makes sense.

Unfortunately, I'm not profitable yet. I've lost a couple BIs, though I figured out that my sample size is something around 1,800 hands, so I'm not too fazed by being down over that # of hands.

Total sessions: 7
Total profit: - $429
Hourly profit: - $7.34/hour

Which means my approximate WR is -12.2 bb/100 (assuming 30 hands/hour). Again, tiny sample so not worried (yet).

Goals of this thread:
- Post interesting spots for feedback so I can have more critical thinking about my live play
- Hold me accountable and continue to play my best live (harder for me to focus live than online)
- Have a laugh when I throw 2 BIs away
- Appease poker gods and achieve rungood

Heading out soon to play a live session today:
Gogogogogogoo

domeburglar · Dec 7, 2012

in... been hoping for a live cash thread.. once i build up a bankroll I might make one of these myself! Good luck on your session

Beanfacekilla · Dec 7, 2012

I want to contribute, but I don't know what to contribute. I tried to click on the spoiler icons, but nothing happened. Perhaps this is because I am on my phone.

domeburglar · Dec 7, 2012

Beanfacekilla said:
I want to contribute, but I don't know what to contribute. I tried to click on the spoiler icons, but nothing happened. Perhaps this is because I am on my phone.

Nope nothing showed up on my computer either...

Beanfacekilla · Dec 7, 2012

I did think of something to add. Unfortunately, most have to lose a bunch to gain the experience needed to win. It's something I believe everyone goes through in the beginning.

And don't play scared. To be at your best, you need to be able to put all your chips in the middle and not be heartbroken if you lose.

That is all. For now.

OMGITSOVER9K · Dec 7, 2012

spoilers don't work. -.-

frozensprx · Dec 7, 2012

Great thread, I'm in the same boat as being a full time student at UCSD and trying to manage enough time to study school as well as trying to contain my love for poker. And based on your sample size don't be discouraged at all, because given that volume of hands and only being down 2 BI I would say that would make you more of a breakeven player then a losing player...because a losing player would likely be down much more than that. I agree live is definitely much more fun! And it is also more profitable because there are more fish in a casino and the lowest stakes are way higher than online, so when you find a real fish at $1/$2 it is much more profitable than a fish at .01/.02 online.

duggs · Dec 7, 2012

Beanfacekilla said:
I did think of something to add. Unfortunately, most have to lose a bunch to gain the experience needed to win. It's something I believe everyone goes through in the beginning.

If this pertains to live specifically its definitely not true

Beanfacekilla · Dec 7, 2012

duggs said:
If this pertains to live specifically its definitely not true

So you are saying from the day you started playing poker you were a winning player?

Even if you started online, and moved to live, I would really think you are going to lose for a bit online while you find your way.

Explain what you mean.

duggs · Dec 7, 2012

anyone with scourrges experience online should be an instant winner live, especially at 1/2.
Basically live isnt harder than online especially at those stakes.

duggs · Dec 7, 2012

Beanfacekilla said:
So you are saying from the day you started playing poker you were a winning player?

Even if you started online, and moved to live, I would really think you are going to lose for a bit online while you find your way.

Explain what you mean.

And variance happens, a ton of poker players wouldnt still be playing if they didnt hit heaters at the start.

domeburglar · Dec 7, 2012

duggs said:
anyone with scourrges experience online should be an instant winner live, especially at 1/2.
Basically live isnt harder than online especially at those stakes.

transitioning from only online to live can be difficult i think.. especially if your used to having a HUD or multitabling where you can easily see 1000 hands an hour.. yes the basic strategy is the same and in theory you should be able to win at both.. its a different monster having to stare an opponent down and fire a bluff or be cool when u flop a big hand

Beanfacekilla · Dec 7, 2012

Oh ok. I was thinking about it differently than that. I started live, and I never really got into online too much. I have had a few decent MTT scores over the years, but I am not very good at ring games online. It is just a different game.

Plus, maybe I am conditioned to playing total morons from all the live play, and I am really not that good. I don't know. I think I am pretty good at reading people though.

Even many pros have a real tough time playing online after years of live play.

Thanks for the expansion of your point though duggs and the other guy I am too lazy to scroll down and look at your name.

That is all.

Beanfacekilla · Dec 7, 2012

duggs said:
anyone with scourrges experience online should be an instant winner live, especially at 1/2.
Basically live isnt harder than online especially at those stakes.

How much live poker have you played, just curious....

I think the games are totally different.

wormzy · Dec 7, 2012

I too will chime in on this.There are tournies at my local casino and I'm hoping to get in the next tourney on Saturday.10 am $60 dollar buy in and the cash is getting bigger every week just by word of mouth.As soon as I'm definate on going I will be sure to let everyone know!

duggs · Dec 7, 2012

domeburglar said:
transitioning from only online to live can be difficult i think.. especially if your used to having a HUD or multitabling where you can easily see 1000 hands an hour.. yes the basic strategy is the same and in theory you should be able to win at both.. its a different monster having to stare an opponent down and fire a bluff or be cool when u flop a big hand

yea, except the field strength is exponentially weaker. And almost nobody is paying attention anyway.
iv played maybe 20 hours of live poker in my life. maybe more its hard to say, I've only been playing poker a little over a year or so.

usetheion13 · Dec 7, 2012

Im about to hop on this thread in about 6 days when I turn 21, I have played plenty of live games in Atlantic City and Ive played in Vegas (Fake ID, shhh). but I hope to contribute once I really start playing alot of live poker "legally" of course. Do you play at Foxwoods up in Boston?

thebigdawg · Dec 7, 2012

duggs said:
anyone with scourrges experience online should be an instant winner live, especially at 1/2.
Basically live isnt harder than online especially at those stakes.

Live is not harder than online, but it is different...especially cash games. It takes awhile to get use to. Playing only one table compared to 3-6 online, hands you see per hour online compared to live, not having the auto top-off that gives you the max amount every hand. BR management as well...most will say in order to play $0.50/1 online you need at least $1,500. Not many think that way when playing live.

papatango123 · Dec 8, 2012

live is way different to online i play about 30 hours per week playing live cash it plays way deeper theres tonnes more limping most flops are seen 5or6 ways. A 3x raise is basically seen as a limp at a live cash table. Basically thers very little folding preflop so you should be 3betting much wider for value most play loose preflop an nut peddle postflop.

Matt Vaughan · Dec 8, 2012

Wow, blown away by the instantaneous response to this. Thanks so much for the interest and posts, guys!!

I almost don't want to count my first 30-40 hours of play since so much of that was spent adjusting, or figuring out how the play differs, but unfortunately my session last night was pretty painful.

My new plan had been to never spend more than $300 in a losing session, since tbh I'm not even remotely rolled for $1/$2 if you consider standard (online) BRM. But last night after I lost my initial buyin + rebuy that I brought, it just felt so dumb to leave. It was just hitting fish-time, since it was early evening on a Friday... Felt the games were too good, so I rebought again... And lost it. Then I took a dinner break to make sure I wasn't getting flustered. Came back, bought in for $200.

Realized I shouldn't have been playing the table was. At a couple moments I had the thought "this table doesn't seem all that profitable - should I leave?" but didn't. Part of it is that table changes are so much harder live.

But anyway, after dinner I came to another table, definitely a good one. I had been building up my stack slowly. No one was really going crazy with terrible hands, but it was easy to be patient and chip up. I had about $500 on the table when this hand happened:

Bad, loose passive woman two to my left. I'm in the SB and she decides to straddle (makes it $5 blind, and gets to close the action preflop). Only one caller, from the HJ and it's folded to me. I look at AhAs and raise it to $20. BB folds, straddle calls, HJ folds. So we go to the flop heads up.

(Pot: $46)
Flop: 9c9s8d

I lead out for $35, and she quickly calls (this was very common - she was basically a calling station). I put her on a decent pair, like TT+, double broadway, and Ax (I had seen her call with very weak Ax to standard raises).

(Pot: $116)
Turn: 7c

For what I figured she had, the 7 didn't scare me, and given the preflop action shouldn't have scared her. I asked her how much she had behind because she was covering it (pet peeve), and she had $180 behind. I lead out again, this time for $70, and she called quickly again. At this point she has to have something, because normally she would shut down without at the very least a pair here. I weighted her much more toward a decent pair.

(Pot: $256)
River: Ks

Now, I wasn't super excited about this card, because based on her range, it's kind of a scare card. But I didn't think she would fold TT+ here, and that's heavily what I put her on, so I elected to shove the remaining $110 into the middle.

In retrospect I don't really agree entirely with the range I was putting her on, but in a way it makes betting the flop and turn just as favorable while making the river bet questionable. I'm not sure though - thoughts about this hand and what her range could be?

Hoping to go back to the casino today since I have time, but it's pretty disheartening to have ended the session down about 2.5 BIs, so we'll see how much I'm "feeling it" in a couple hours when I'd be heading out.

Matt Vaughan · Dec 8, 2012

I'll post one more hand from yesterday.

I'm on the BTN holding J7hh. MP opens to $12 (the standard raise at the table), and gets 2 callers. I elect to call, which is pretty loose imo, but with position and with the pot already bloated, I felt okay about it, especially since someone else could call in the blinds. SB folded, BB called, and we went to the flop 5-way.

(Pot: $61)
Flop: Jd5h4h

I flop top pair and a FD, which is basically the best I could have hoped for. BB checks, and the original MP opener bets $40. The two people ahead of me snap-fold. This player was tight, and at this point he could definitely have a big pair like QQ+, but he was definitely capable of cbetting AQ+ here. After the $40 bet he had ~$100 behind. I decided to shove over him, thinking that even if he had something like AA, I could hit any J, any 7, and any heart to win. I also didn't have an image of so much aggression with just draws, so I thought he would fold overpairs sometimes (but not all the time), expecting I had a set.

I still like how I played this hand because of my sick amount of equity. In retrospect I kind of think of this hand more like a 3bet pot, simply because the SPR is so low, and once he pops it on the flop I'm probably fine getting my money in.

Beanfacekilla · Dec 8, 2012

Scourrge said:
Wow, blown away by the instantaneous response to this. Thanks so much for the interest and posts, guys!!

I almost don't want to count my first 30-40 hours of play since so much of that was spent adjusting, or figuring out how the play differs, but unfortunately my session last night was pretty painful.

My new plan had been to never spend more than $300 in a losing session, since tbh I'm not even remotely rolled for $1/$2 if you consider standard (online) BRM. But last night after I lost my initial buyin + rebuy that I brought, it just felt so dumb to leave. It was just hitting fish-time, since it was early evening on a Friday... Felt the games were too good, so I rebought again... And lost it. Then I took a dinner break to make sure I wasn't getting flustered. Came back, bought in for $200.

Realized I shouldn't have been playing the table was. At a couple moments I had the thought "this table doesn't seem all that profitable - should I leave?" but didn't. Part of it is that table changes are so much harder live.

But anyway, after dinner I came to another table, definitely a good one. I had been building up my stack slowly. No one was really going crazy with terrible hands, but it was easy to be patient and chip up. I had about $500 on the table when this hand happened:

Bad, loose passive woman two to my left. I'm in the SB and she decides to straddle (makes it $5 blind, and gets to close the action preflop). Only one caller, from the HJ and it's folded to me. I look at AhAs and raise it to $20. BB folds, straddle calls, HJ folds. So we go to the flop heads up.

(Pot: $46)
Flop: 9c9s8d

I lead out for $35, and she quickly calls (this was very common - she was basically a calling station). I put her on a decent pair, like TT+, double broadway, and Ax (I had seen her call with very weak Ax to standard raises).

(Pot: $116)
Turn: 7c

For what I figured she had, the 7 didn't scare me, and given the preflop action shouldn't have scared her. I asked her how much she had behind because she was covering it (pet peeve), and she had $180 behind. I lead out again, this time for $70, and she called quickly again. At this point she has to have something, because normally she would shut down without at the very least a pair here. I weighted her much more toward a decent pair.

(Pot: $256)
River: Ks

Now, I wasn't super excited about this card, because based on her range, it's kind of a scare card. But I didn't think she would fold TT+ here, and that's heavily what I put her on, so I elected to shove the remaining $110 into the middle.

In retrospect I don't really agree entirely with the range I was putting her on, but in a way it makes betting the flop and turn just as favorable while making the river bet questionable. I'm not sure though - thoughts about this hand and what her range could be?

Hoping to go back to the casino today since I have time, but it's pretty disheartening to have ended the session down about 2.5 BIs, so we'll see how much I'm "feeling it" in a couple hours when I'd be heading out.

Fwiw I think she had trips. Or even worse, a boat.

These people will often call ATC for any amount on their straddle. I honestly don't understand why anyone UTG would want to straddle to begin with. I think many players think it is jump starting their luck or something stupid like this.

That happens frequently when players have overpairs. There's a pair on the board, and of course the moron who called with rags hit the lotto.

Don't be afraid to check on the turn here. Opponent will for sure bet for value on the river, and then you can make your decision as to whether they have it or not. I definately think you are beat in this spot.

Beanfacekilla · Dec 8, 2012

Scourrge said:
I'll post one more hand from yesterday.

I'm on the BTN holding J7hh. MP opens to $12 (the standard raise at the table), and gets 2 callers. I elect to call, which is pretty loose imo, but with position and with the pot already bloated, I felt okay about it, especially since someone else could call in the blinds. SB folded, BB called, and we went to the flop 5-way.

(Pot: $61)
Flop: Jd5h4h

I flop top pair and a FD, which is basically the best I could have hoped for. BB checks, and the original MP opener bets $40. The two people ahead of me snap-fold. This player was tight, and at this point he could definitely have a big pair like QQ+, but he was definitely capable of cbetting AQ+ here. After the $40 bet he had ~$100 behind. I decided to shove over him, thinking that even if he had something like AA, I could hit any J, any 7, and any heart to win. I also didn't have an image of so much aggression with just draws, so I thought he would fold overpairs sometimes (but not all the time), expecting I had a set.

I still like how I played this hand because of my sick amount of equity. In retrospect I kind of think of this hand more like a 3bet pot, simply because the SPR is so low, and once he pops it on the flop I'm probably fine getting my money in.

Here is my input on this one.

I understand the call preflop. I understand the shove. But there is no way dude is folding an overpair. Or he could have a bigger flush draw. Or he could have even flopped a set.

This same situation plays out over and over on any card table. The domino effect. There is one caller, then two, well I should get in. If I hit, I will definitely make some loot.

Tighten up. J-7 is trouble. Position is irrelevant. You can fold for free. Throw that garbage in the muck. What happened ultimately was you hit the flop, but a call here likely has you dead to rights. And flush is maybe 1 in 5 to hit seeing one more card. If there is one thing I've learned, the flush draw is not going to come most of the time.

Play tighter.

By no means am I trying to be rude. I absolutely do not know everything. But i do know this, these tables are filled with fish, and they are rarely smart enough to fold. So don't think you can push them out.

Edit: And if you think you may be behind, it is wise not to chase for too much. Just remember it would have cost nothing to fold.

frozensprx · Dec 9, 2012

Scourrge said:
Wow, blown away by the instantaneous response to this. Thanks so much for the interest and posts, guys!!

I almost don't want to count my first 30-40 hours of play since so much of that was spent adjusting, or figuring out how the play differs, but unfortunately my session last night was pretty painful.

My new plan had been to never spend more than $300 in a losing session, since tbh I'm not even remotely rolled for $1/$2 if you consider standard (online) BRM. But last night after I lost my initial buyin + rebuy that I brought, it just felt so dumb to leave. It was just hitting fish-time, since it was early evening on a Friday... Felt the games were too good, so I rebought again... And lost it. Then I took a dinner break to make sure I wasn't getting flustered. Came back, bought in for $200.

Realized I shouldn't have been playing the table was. At a couple moments I had the thought "this table doesn't seem all that profitable - should I leave?" but didn't. Part of it is that table changes are so much harder live.

But anyway, after dinner I came to another table, definitely a good one. I had been building up my stack slowly. No one was really going crazy with terrible hands, but it was easy to be patient and chip up. I had about $500 on the table when this hand happened:

Bad, loose passive woman two to my left. I'm in the SB and she decides to straddle (makes it $5 blind, and gets to close the action preflop). Only one caller, from the HJ and it's folded to me. I look at AhAs and raise it to $20. BB folds, straddle calls, HJ folds. So we go to the flop heads up.

(Pot: $46)
Flop: 9c9s8d

I lead out for $35, and she quickly calls (this was very common - she was basically a calling station). I put her on a decent pair, like TT+, double broadway, and Ax (I had seen her call with very weak Ax to standard raises).

(Pot: $116)
Turn: 7c

For what I figured she had, the 7 didn't scare me, and given the preflop action shouldn't have scared her. I asked her how much she had behind because she was covering it (pet peeve), and she had $180 behind. I lead out again, this time for $70, and she called quickly again. At this point she has to have something, because normally she would shut down without at the very least a pair here. I weighted her much more toward a decent pair.

(Pot: $256)
River: Ks

Now, I wasn't super excited about this card, because based on her range, it's kind of a scare card. But I didn't think she would fold TT+ here, and that's heavily what I put her on, so I elected to shove the remaining $110 into the middle.

In retrospect I don't really agree entirely with the range I was putting her on, but in a way it makes betting the flop and turn just as favorable while making the river bet questionable. I'm not sure though - thoughts about this hand and what her range could be?

Hoping to go back to the casino today since I have time, but it's pretty disheartening to have ended the session down about 2.5 BIs, so we'll see how much I'm "feeling it" in a couple hours when I'd be heading out.

I think you played this well until the turn. For starters, if she is flatting you on a 998 board, and is a pretty loose player as you said, then she could've called your pfr with a very wide range of hands, and she wouldn't stay in the pot on a flop like that unless she had something. Based on this hand, I am guessing she had j10off and hit the straight on the turn. If I was in the pot I would probably check turn and maybe check/call the river depending if she checked the turn also.

Matt Vaughan · Dec 9, 2012

Beanfacekilla said:
Here is my input on this one.

I understand the call preflop. I understand the shove. But there is no way dude is folding an overpair. Or he could have a bigger flush draw. Or he could have even flopped a set.

This same situation plays out over and over on any card table. The domino effect. There is one caller, then two, well I should get in. If I hit, I will definitely make some loot.

Tighten up. J-7 is trouble. Position is irrelevant. You can fold for free. Throw that garbage in the muck. What happened ultimately was you hit the flop, but a call here likely has you dead to rights. And flush is maybe 1 in 5 to hit seeing one more card. If there is one thing I've learned, the flush draw is not going to come most of the time.

Play tighter.

By no means am I trying to be rude. I absolutely do not know everything. But i do know this, these tables are filled with fish, and they are rarely smart enough to fold. So don't think you can push them out.

Edit: And if you think you may be behind, it is wise not to chase for too much. Just remember it would have cost nothing to fold.

LOL. Position is the single most important factor in almost every hand. I don't think this is an exception. Also don't forget I said he could easily cbet AQ here, in which case he is folding, no questions asked. And I was not trying to say that I thought ANY random player would fold an overpair. I was saying that THAT player in particular could potentially fold an overpair. Fwiw he tank-called KK.

"Dead to rights" implies I'm in a lot of trouble equity-wise, when that's just not the case here, ever. I'm guaranteed to see 2 more cards when I shove. If he has a bigger flush draw I'm actually ahead equity-wise with top pair (Though if he had a FD with 2 overs we're basically flipping). At worst I'm probably roughly 1/3 equity (he basically never has sets here).

How much I am "chasing" for doesn't matter. Variance is variance no matter how much is being risked. And you can hardly call it "chasing" - chasing is basically check-calling until you do or don't hit the nuts on the river. I'm not saying this is necessarily fantastic, but frankly I think the only reeeaallyy questionable part is the preflop call, which I already acknowledged was quite loose.

frozensprx said:
I think you played this well until the turn. For starters, if she is flatting you on a 998 board, and is a pretty loose player as you said, then she could've called your pfr with a very wide range of hands, and she wouldn't stay in the pot on a flop like that unless she had something. Based on this hand, I am guessing she had j10off and hit the straight on the turn. If I was in the pot I would probably check turn and maybe check/call the river depending if she checked the turn also.

Yeah - the more I thought I about it, the more I hated the whole situation. In a way the board is nowhere near as good as I would have liked. Much better would have been Kxx or Qxx, since she is never folding top pair, ever. I think a lot of the cash game players here will say checking turn might be missing value, but I'm not sure. Would like to hear from more people about this hand.

Just so gross to see a blank flop, get a call from a loose passive, and suddenly have the sneaking suspicion that we're drawing dead on the turn. Not saying that makes the bets good, just that it was pretty hard to go into check-fold mode with aces there.

Live Grind: How to Not Fall Asleep at the Table

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants

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Beanfacekilla

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OMGITSOVER9K

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