it depends on where your playing and who your playing against but overall, you should play tighter than usual cause alot of people are way too cally.
The key to live, is bet small like everytime (they are completely inelastic to bet size). And if you find yourself with anything but the nuts and facing a raise, fold.
Stick to this and you'll be fine.
Preflop 3x just isn't enough live. I would say at a $1/$2 table a good preflop raise should be $10~$15.
Post-flop, bet enough to give them incorrect odds to draw (if you have a made hand or huge draw).
Many pots will be multi-way. Watch out for landmines. And like the others said, if these passive s***-for-brains villains raise you, proceed with extreme caution.
Don't slow play (unless you flop like the eternal nuts).
One last tip: Don't be one of these guys raising to 20x preflop cause you are sick of fish sucking out by playing bingo. You will just lose more if you get outdrawn. Hand-ranging 101. Value bet the crap out of them, because they will pay you with way worse. But remember - if you are getting raised by passive players, only continue with the nuts or near nuts.
In live play, you will encounter some of the worst players you could possibly imagine. Don't try fancy plays and bluffs. They are too stupid to pick up what you are trying to lay down.
That is all I have to contribute I suppose. Just my OPINION.
I think the problem is that $15 preflop has pretty much the same effect as $7 preflop. Solid players will fold because they recognize strength, even when the bet is lower than other bets at the table, and the weak players will not give a sh*t and throw their money in. That may seem great (what could be better than someone throwing money into a pot when you have a good hand?), but think about what happens postflop...
You have AQs, raise to $15 preflop, and get 3 callers. Flop is rainbow rags. In a solid poker game, you could probably bet and take the pot down a good percentage of the time. But in $1/$2, you'll bet and be surprised how often someone calls. Why do they call? Because they called your preflop raise with a crap hand and hit a pair or better on the flop. In $1/$2, you're probably going to the flop with 3+ other players, which does not fare well for AQ because of how often you'll miss.
I agree with betting enough to give incorrect odds to draw. However, the OP should keep in mind that few low stakes live players calculate their odds and are willing to chase draws for almost any amount of money. You give them incorrect odds because in the long run they lose money to you, not because you want them to fold (well, you do want them to fold, but you know they won't). So if a third spade hits on the river and the villain is suddenly betting, don't rule out a flush because you gave bad odds to chase.
Just play solid poker. Believe it or not, bluffing will not make you much money in low stakes live games. There will be a few spots where it can be very effective, but in general, you'll need a good hand to take the pot. The good thing is, if you are not a complete nit (even weak players recognize this), your big hands will get paid off.
I think the problem is that $15 preflop has pretty much the same effect as $7 preflop. Solid players will fold because they recognize strength, even when the bet is lower than other bets at the table, and the weak players will not give a sh*t and throw their money in. That may seem great (what could be better than someone throwing money into a pot when you have a good hand?), but think about what happens postflop...
You have AQs, raise to $15 preflop, and get 3 callers. Flop is rainbow rags. In a solid poker game, you could probably bet and take the pot down a good percentage of the time. But in $1/$2, you'll bet and be surprised how often someone calls. Why do they call? Because they called your preflop raise with a crap hand and hit a pair or better on the flop. In $1/$2, you're probably going to the flop with 3+ other players, which does not fare well for AQ because of how often you'll miss.
I agree with betting enough to give incorrect odds to draw. However, the OP should keep in mind that few low stakes live players calculate their odds and are willing to chase draws for almost any amount of money. You give them incorrect odds because in the long run they lose money to you, not because you want them to fold (well, you do want them to fold, but you know they won't). So if a third spade hits on the river and the villain is suddenly betting, don't rule out a flush because you gave bad odds to chase.
Just play solid poker. Believe it or not, bluffing will not make you much money in low stakes live games. There will be a few spots where it can be very effective, but in general, you'll need a good hand to take the pot. The good thing is, if you are not a complete nit (even weak players recognize this), your big hands will get paid off.
Good post. I have a couple of points I would like to make.
I don't know how much live poker you play. A $7 preflop raise isn't going to fold anyone. You will be going to the flop probably 5~6 way. If you are at a nitty table, then maybe.
Also the point you made about whiffing the flop with A-Q against 3 opponents...
It is -ev to c-bet bluff into 3 opponents. 2 opponents is the limit. I would not be c-bet bluffing in that spot anyways. If you are c-bet bluffing boards like that into multiple opponents, you might as well set your money on fire.
Aside from those two things, I like what you had to say. It is cool to have different perspectives.
Edit: We aren't giving opponent incorrect odds to draw because we want him to fold. I don't care if they are calculating or not. The only reason we do this is to get these fish to pay us as much $$ as possible. Because if we are the favorite, we are trying to extract value.
A $15 bet will barely ever get you 2 opponents or less. My point is that a $15 bet and a $7 bet are accomplishing almost the same thing. You may fold one more opponent than you would with a $7 bet, but you are probably going to the flop with multiple opponents regardless. Either way, you'll probably need to hit the flop.
If you have a $200 stack, you raise to $15 preflop and get 3 callers. You hit the flop, bet $35, and get 1 caller. At this point, you've committed 25% of your stack with a pot of $130 and $150 left in your stack. A $15 preflop raise almost eliminates the benefit of playing deep-stacked because by the turn the pot is almost as large as what's left in your stack.
$7 is not ever going to thin the herd in my experience. According to what you are saying, we might as well just limp. I don't agree that $7 is the same as $15.
My standard raise is $11. It works well. However, if I were to raise to $7, I would almost certainly be seeing the flop at least 5-way. That is how things go when I play live. I do not want to see the flop 5-way+, so I raise more. It works for me.
When I first started playing $1/$2, I'd increase my raises as a result of multiple callers, but with no success. In my experience, a lot of weak players are going to look at their hole cards, and if they like what they see, they're staying in, regardless of the raise (unless it is outrageous, like $30+). Most solid players still respect my $7 raise.
There aren't many solid players on $1/$2. Mostly impatient bingo players.
What I have learned over the years is table image helps after a while on the table. Stack a couple of fish, and then people start respecting your bets a little more.
Bottom line: there are different ways to get things done. I am not saying you are wrong. I open for $7 sometimes if the table is nitty.
Geez-us there is some horrible advice in this thread...
Its not about playing tight or loose but rather about exploiting the leaks of our villains.
There are essentially three ways to destroy the live game.
A) We maneuver to see as many pots as possible for cheap, hit our hands on turn/river and then value town our mouthbreathing knuckle dragging villains
____-- hands like Axs, SCs, S1Gs (suited one gapers) and pockets are tremendously valuable when 100bb+ deep. We want to play these hands in position, pot control, turn/river gin and then prison rape our villains with offensive overbets
B) We fast play our value hands getting our villains to play for more than their hands our worth with offensive overbets (i.e. 8bb - 15bb preflop raises followed by flop/turn shoves for stacks )
_____-- hands like JJ+, AK become extremely valuable. When we raise players will tend to put us on AK however they will often still pay us off on Ace and King boards. Conversely, when we have JJ+ on non-ace and non king boards we can almost always play for stacks because they will put us on AK
C) We exploit the various leaks of our villains particularly their 3-betting ranges and how they play certain board textures and how they love to slow play their monsters and or how they will stack off 100bb with TPGK even on a 9 5 2 r board and they have K9......
______-- Villains at this level have so many leaks and play their hands face up. When we have JJ/QQ/AK and an ABC villain puts in a massive 3-bet, we can almost always fold because ABC 3-bet ranges in live poker are exclusively AA/KK. When we c-bet a dry board and a V check/raises us that is almost always a retarded set. When V calls down big bets that is TPGK that just is never folding. When there is a draw on board villains will often play for stacks on the turn despite getting incorrect odds. When V donk bets into us that is almost always TPMK or TPGK hand that isn't folding. Not to mention most live villains have horrible sizing tells...
You can destroy the live game playing tight AND/OR you can destroy the live game playing loose. Depends on your table and the table dynamics and what flavor of fish your villains are. When you are at a scared money table optimal play will be to be loose. When you are at a spewtarded aggro table optimal play will be to tighten up and rape them when you hit your value hands.
It just depends.
Preflop 3x just isn't enough live. I would say at a $1/$2 table a good preflop raise should be $10~$15.
....
Post-flop, bet enough to give them incorrect odds to draw (if you have a made hand or huge draw).
Completely agree. Never go broke in a limpfest 6-way pot. When a passive rec-fish raises you, you better be near nutted....
Many pots will be multi-way. Watch out for landmines. And like the others said, if these passive s***-for-brains villains raise you, proceed with extreme caution..
....
Don't slow play (unless you flop like the eternal nuts).
...
One last tip: Don't be one of these guys raising to 20x preflop cause you are sick of fish sucking out by playing bingo. You will just lose more if you get outdrawn.
... Value bet the crap out of them, because they will pay you with way worse.
very true...But remember - if you are getting raised by passive players, only continue with the nuts or near nuts.
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In live play, you will encounter some of the worst players you could possibly imagine. Don't try fancy plays and bluffs. They are too stupid to pick up what you are trying to lay down.