Live Cash Game Strategy

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ricksterrick

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What adjustments do live players make for bet sizing and overall play?
 
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thebigslade

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Bet sizing is the same post-flop, enough for them to call their draws without getting the right price. Don't play passively, if you flop a monster, bet at it.

At the lower stakes you'll see way more limping than online. Make sure you raise your big hands, take control of the pot.

It's standard poker strategy really. If a passive player suddenly turns ultra aggresive, he's got the nuts.
 
vinylspiros

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it depends on where your playing and who your playing against but overall, you should play tighter than usual cause alot of people are way too cally.
 
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thebigslade

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it depends on where your playing and who your playing against but overall, you should play tighter than usual cause alot of people are way too cally.

I.e. people call with weaker hands, so just raise your big hands more. Don't play any tighter than you normally would, whether it's Full-ring or short-handed. Good post-flop ability will go a long way in the weaker live games.
 
Abedin120

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It depend on players against you play, if they are passive than you should play aggressive. You have also play and the weaker hands, not only the bigger hands.
If you play to much with the same players, I mean for a couple of days or months in a row than they will learn about your playing and strategies and you will don't have very chance to make some good profit. However, remember always play with different players and keep an eye on your money. Good luck :D
 
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The key to live, is bet small like everytime (they are completely inelastic to bet size). And if you find yourself with anything but the nuts and facing a raise, fold.

Stick to this and you'll be fine.
 
Mr Sandbag

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The key to live, is bet small like everytime (they are completely inelastic to bet size). And if you find yourself with anything but the nuts and facing a raise, fold.

Stick to this and you'll be fine.

As odd as this advice may seem, it's actually got merit. Weak live players will call a $21 preflop raise just as they'd call a $7 raise. When I first started out, I found myself increasing my preflop raising size to try and fold stubborn players, but it is pointless. Some of them don't even respect a 3-bet. I just stick with my normal $7 bet while being conscious of the fact that I could be up against anything. If you hit the flop, bet it. Most weak live players are passive, even with good hands, so if one of them raises or re-raises you, be careful.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Preflop 3x just isn't enough live. I would say at a $1/$2 table a good preflop raise should be $10~$15.

Post-flop, bet enough to give them incorrect odds to draw (if you have a made hand or huge draw).

Many pots will be multi-way. Watch out for landmines. And like the others said, if these passive s***-for-brains villains raise you, proceed with extreme caution.

Don't slow play (unless you flop like the eternal nuts).

One last tip: Don't be one of these guys raising to 20x preflop cause you are sick of fish sucking out by playing bingo. You will just lose more if you get outdrawn. Hand-ranging 101. Value bet the crap out of them, because they will pay you with way worse. But remember - if you are getting raised by passive players, only continue with the nuts or near nuts.

In live play, you will encounter some of the worst players you could possibly imagine. Don't try fancy plays and bluffs. They are too stupid to pick up what you are trying to lay down.

That is all I have to contribute I suppose. Just my OPINION.
 
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cotta777

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I agree you pretty much need to get upto $5/10 before the games become solid live proper poker strategy, even then in some places your going to have people with money who dont really play a solid game, - also be wary of whether they have online experience, if they dont and thats the case its a different type of poker sometimes donk ish and unpredictable
 
Mr Sandbag

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Preflop 3x just isn't enough live. I would say at a $1/$2 table a good preflop raise should be $10~$15.

Post-flop, bet enough to give them incorrect odds to draw (if you have a made hand or huge draw).


Many pots will be multi-way. Watch out for landmines. And like the others said, if these passive s***-for-brains villains raise you, proceed with extreme caution.

Don't slow play (unless you flop like the eternal nuts).

One last tip: Don't be one of these guys raising to 20x preflop cause you are sick of fish sucking out by playing bingo. You will just lose more if you get outdrawn. Hand-ranging 101. Value bet the crap out of them, because they will pay you with way worse. But remember - if you are getting raised by passive players, only continue with the nuts or near nuts.

In live play, you will encounter some of the worst players you could possibly imagine. Don't try fancy plays and bluffs. They are too stupid to pick up what you are trying to lay down.

That is all I have to contribute I suppose. Just my OPINION.

I think the problem is that $15 preflop has pretty much the same effect as $7 preflop. Solid players will fold because they recognize strength, even when the bet is lower than other bets at the table, and the weak players will not give a sh*t and throw their money in. That may seem great (what could be better than someone throwing money into a pot when you have a good hand?), but think about what happens postflop...

You have AQs, raise to $15 preflop, and get 3 callers. Flop is rainbow rags. In a solid poker game, you could probably bet and take the pot down a good percentage of the time. But in $1/$2, you'll bet and be surprised how often someone calls. Why do they call? Because they called your preflop raise with a crap hand and hit a pair or better on the flop. In $1/$2, you're probably going to the flop with 3+ other players, which does not fare well for AQ because of how often you'll miss.

I agree with betting enough to give incorrect odds to draw. However, the OP should keep in mind that few low stakes live players calculate their odds and are willing to chase draws for almost any amount of money. You give them incorrect odds because in the long run they lose money to you, not because you want them to fold (well, you do want them to fold, but you know they won't). So if a third spade hits on the river and the villain is suddenly betting, don't rule out a flush because you gave bad odds to chase.

Just play solid poker. Believe it or not, bluffing will not make you much money in low stakes live games. There will be a few spots where it can be very effective, but in general, you'll need a good hand to take the pot. The good thing is, if you are not a complete nit (even weak players recognize this), your big hands will get paid off.
 
vinylspiros

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I think the problem is that $15 preflop has pretty much the same effect as $7 preflop. Solid players will fold because they recognize strength, even when the bet is lower than other bets at the table, and the weak players will not give a sh*t and throw their money in. That may seem great (what could be better than someone throwing money into a pot when you have a good hand?), but think about what happens postflop...

You have AQs, raise to $15 preflop, and get 3 callers. Flop is rainbow rags. In a solid poker game, you could probably bet and take the pot down a good percentage of the time. But in $1/$2, you'll bet and be surprised how often someone calls. Why do they call? Because they called your preflop raise with a crap hand and hit a pair or better on the flop. In $1/$2, you're probably going to the flop with 3+ other players, which does not fare well for AQ because of how often you'll miss.

I agree with betting enough to give incorrect odds to draw. However, the OP should keep in mind that few low stakes live players calculate their odds and are willing to chase draws for almost any amount of money. You give them incorrect odds because in the long run they lose money to you, not because you want them to fold (well, you do want them to fold, but you know they won't). So if a third spade hits on the river and the villain is suddenly betting, don't rule out a flush because you gave bad odds to chase.

Just play solid poker. Believe it or not, bluffing will not make you much money in low stakes live games. There will be a few spots where it can be very effective, but in general, you'll need a good hand to take the pot. The good thing is, if you are not a complete nit (even weak players recognize this), your big hands will get paid off.

Nice post MR. sandbag. Spot on analysis of why we should be playing tighter live. People are bored and they want to see flops and gamble and in order to win their money , your going to have to have the goods more often than not.
 
Beanfacekilla

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I think the problem is that $15 preflop has pretty much the same effect as $7 preflop. Solid players will fold because they recognize strength, even when the bet is lower than other bets at the table, and the weak players will not give a sh*t and throw their money in. That may seem great (what could be better than someone throwing money into a pot when you have a good hand?), but think about what happens postflop...

You have AQs, raise to $15 preflop, and get 3 callers. Flop is rainbow rags. In a solid poker game, you could probably bet and take the pot down a good percentage of the time. But in $1/$2, you'll bet and be surprised how often someone calls. Why do they call? Because they called your preflop raise with a crap hand and hit a pair or better on the flop. In $1/$2, you're probably going to the flop with 3+ other players, which does not fare well for AQ because of how often you'll miss.

I agree with betting enough to give incorrect odds to draw. However, the OP should keep in mind that few low stakes live players calculate their odds and are willing to chase draws for almost any amount of money. You give them incorrect odds because in the long run they lose money to you, not because you want them to fold (well, you do want them to fold, but you know they won't). So if a third spade hits on the river and the villain is suddenly betting, don't rule out a flush because you gave bad odds to chase.

Just play solid poker. Believe it or not, bluffing will not make you much money in low stakes live games. There will be a few spots where it can be very effective, but in general, you'll need a good hand to take the pot. The good thing is, if you are not a complete nit (even weak players recognize this), your big hands will get paid off.

Good post. I have a couple of points I would like to make.

I don't know how much live poker you play. A $7 preflop raise isn't going to fold anyone. You will be going to the flop probably 5~6 way. If you are at a nitty table, then maybe.

Also the point you made about whiffing the flop with A-Q against 3 opponents...

It is -ev to c-bet bluff into 3 opponents. 2 opponents is the limit. I would not be c-bet bluffing in that spot anyways. If you are c-bet bluffing boards like that into multiple opponents, you might as well set your money on fire.

Aside from those two things, I like what you had to say. It is cool to have different perspectives.

Edit: We aren't giving opponent incorrect odds to draw because we want him to fold. I don't care if they are calculating or not. The only reason we do this is to get these fish to pay us as much $$ as possible. Because if we are the favorite, we are trying to extract value.
 
Mr Sandbag

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Good post. I have a couple of points I would like to make.

I don't know how much live poker you play. A $7 preflop raise isn't going to fold anyone. You will be going to the flop probably 5~6 way. If you are at a nitty table, then maybe.

Also the point you made about whiffing the flop with A-Q against 3 opponents...

It is -ev to c-bet bluff into 3 opponents. 2 opponents is the limit. I would not be c-bet bluffing in that spot anyways. If you are c-bet bluffing boards like that into multiple opponents, you might as well set your money on fire.

Aside from those two things, I like what you had to say. It is cool to have different perspectives.

Edit: We aren't giving opponent incorrect odds to draw because we want him to fold. I don't care if they are calculating or not. The only reason we do this is to get these fish to pay us as much $$ as possible. Because if we are the favorite, we are trying to extract value.

A $15 bet will barely ever get you 2 opponents or less. My point is that a $15 bet and a $7 bet are accomplishing almost the same thing. You may fold one more opponent than you would with a $7 bet, but you are probably going to the flop with multiple opponents regardless. Either way, you'll probably need to hit the flop.

If you have a $200 stack, you raise to $15 preflop and get 3 callers. You hit the flop, bet $35, and get 1 caller. At this point, you've committed 25% of your stack with a pot of $130 and $150 left in your stack. A $15 preflop raise almost eliminates the benefit of playing deep-stacked because by the turn the pot is almost as large as what's left in your stack.
 
Beanfacekilla

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A $15 bet will barely ever get you 2 opponents or less. My point is that a $15 bet and a $7 bet are accomplishing almost the same thing. You may fold one more opponent than you would with a $7 bet, but you are probably going to the flop with multiple opponents regardless. Either way, you'll probably need to hit the flop.

If you have a $200 stack, you raise to $15 preflop and get 3 callers. You hit the flop, bet $35, and get 1 caller. At this point, you've committed 25% of your stack with a pot of $130 and $150 left in your stack. A $15 preflop raise almost eliminates the benefit of playing deep-stacked because by the turn the pot is almost as large as what's left in your stack.


$7 is not ever going to thin the herd in my experience. According to what you are saying, we might as well just limp. I don't agree that $7 is the same as $15.

My standard raise is $11. It works well. However, if I were to raise to $7, I would almost certainly be seeing the flop at least 5-way. That is how things go when I play live. I do not want to see the flop 5-way+, so I raise more. It works for me.
 
Mr Sandbag

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$7 is not ever going to thin the herd in my experience. According to what you are saying, we might as well just limp. I don't agree that $7 is the same as $15.

My standard raise is $11. It works well. However, if I were to raise to $7, I would almost certainly be seeing the flop at least 5-way. That is how things go when I play live. I do not want to see the flop 5-way+, so I raise more. It works for me.

When I first started playing $1/$2, I'd increase my raises as a result of multiple callers, but with no success. In my experience, a lot of weak players are going to look at their hole cards, and if they like what they see, they're staying in, regardless of the raise (unless it is outrageous, like $30+). Most solid players still respect my $7 raise.
 
Beanfacekilla

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When I first started playing $1/$2, I'd increase my raises as a result of multiple callers, but with no success. In my experience, a lot of weak players are going to look at their hole cards, and if they like what they see, they're staying in, regardless of the raise (unless it is outrageous, like $30+). Most solid players still respect my $7 raise.

There aren't many solid players on $1/$2. Mostly impatient bingo players.

What I have learned over the years is table image helps after a while on the table. Stack a couple of fish, and then people start respecting your bets a little more.

Bottom line: there are different ways to get things done. I am not saying you are wrong. I open for $7 sometimes if the table is nitty.
 
Mr Sandbag

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There aren't many solid players on $1/$2. Mostly impatient bingo players.

What I have learned over the years is table image helps after a while on the table. Stack a couple of fish, and then people start respecting your bets a little more.

Bottom line: there are different ways to get things done. I am not saying you are wrong. I open for $7 sometimes if the table is nitty.

Yup, I agree. Usually about 2 solid players per table. Image is important because even the worst players can recognize a total nit and will be hesitant to get involved in a hand when a nit is suddenly pushing money in.
 
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I think the pre-flop raises of 15 dollars at a 1/2 cash table are way too much. The first time i played 1/2 ...very first hand was 1010...i opened the pot at 7 dollars [standard to me] 5 people called [and of course i lost the pot] ....never saw that raise again from anyone ...it was either call or 10-15 pre-flop.....this kind of action to me suggests 2/4 play
 
TeUnit

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think live often allows you to use more exploitive bet sizing, ie i think you can get away with betting larger preflop ie its harder to get action raising to 4x online than it is live
 
dgiharris

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Geez-us there is some horrible advice in this thread...

Its not about playing tight or loose but rather about exploiting the leaks of our villains.

There are essentially three ways to destroy the live game.

A) We maneuver to see as many pots as possible for cheap, hit our hands on turn/river and then value town our mouthbreathing knuckle dragging villains
____-- hands like Axs, SCs, S1Gs (suited one gapers) and pockets are tremendously valuable when 100bb+ deep. We want to play these hands in position, pot control, turn/river gin and then prison rape our villains with offensive overbets

B) We fast play our value hands getting our villains to play for more than their hands our worth with offensive overbets (i.e. 8bb - 15bb preflop raises :eek: followed by flop/turn shoves for stacks :p)
_____-- hands like JJ+, AK become extremely valuable. When we raise players will tend to put us on AK however they will often still pay us off on Ace and King boards. Conversely, when we have JJ+ on non-ace and non king boards we can almost always play for stacks because they will put us on AK

C) We exploit the various leaks of our villains particularly their 3-betting ranges and how they play certain board textures and how they love to slow play their monsters and or how they will stack off 100bb with TPGK even on a 9 5 2 r board and they have K9......
______-- Villains at this level have so many leaks and play their hands face up. When we have JJ/QQ/AK and an ABC villain puts in a massive 3-bet, we can almost always fold because ABC 3-bet ranges in live poker are exclusively AA/KK. When we c-bet a dry board and a V check/raises us that is almost always a retarded set. When V calls down big bets that is TPGK that just is never folding. When there is a draw on board villains will often play for stacks on the turn despite getting incorrect odds. When V donk bets into us that is almost always TPMK or TPGK hand that isn't folding. Not to mention most live villains have horrible sizing tells...

You can destroy the live game playing tight AND/OR you can destroy the live game playing loose. Depends on your table and the table dynamics and what flavor of fish your villains are. When you are at a scared money table optimal play will be to be loose. When you are at a spewtarded aggro table optimal play will be to tighten up and rape them when you hit your value hands.

It just depends.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Geez-us there is some horrible advice in this thread...

Its not about playing tight or loose but rather about exploiting the leaks of our villains.

There are essentially three ways to destroy the live game.

A) We maneuver to see as many pots as possible for cheap, hit our hands on turn/river and then value town our mouthbreathing knuckle dragging villains
____-- hands like Axs, SCs, S1Gs (suited one gapers) and pockets are tremendously valuable when 100bb+ deep. We want to play these hands in position, pot control, turn/river gin and then prison rape our villains with offensive overbets

B) We fast play our value hands getting our villains to play for more than their hands our worth with offensive overbets (i.e. 8bb - 15bb preflop raises :eek: followed by flop/turn shoves for stacks :p)
_____-- hands like JJ+, AK become extremely valuable. When we raise players will tend to put us on AK however they will often still pay us off on Ace and King boards. Conversely, when we have JJ+ on non-ace and non king boards we can almost always play for stacks because they will put us on AK

C) We exploit the various leaks of our villains particularly their 3-betting ranges and how they play certain board textures and how they love to slow play their monsters and or how they will stack off 100bb with TPGK even on a 9 5 2 r board and they have K9......
______-- Villains at this level have so many leaks and play their hands face up. When we have JJ/QQ/AK and an ABC villain puts in a massive 3-bet, we can almost always fold because ABC 3-bet ranges in live poker are exclusively AA/KK. When we c-bet a dry board and a V check/raises us that is almost always a retarded set. When V calls down big bets that is TPGK that just is never folding. When there is a draw on board villains will often play for stacks on the turn despite getting incorrect odds. When V donk bets into us that is almost always TPMK or TPGK hand that isn't folding. Not to mention most live villains have horrible sizing tells...

You can destroy the live game playing tight AND/OR you can destroy the live game playing loose. Depends on your table and the table dynamics and what flavor of fish your villains are. When you are at a scared money table optimal play will be to be loose. When you are at a spewtarded aggro table optimal play will be to tighten up and rape them when you hit your value hands.

It just depends.

You obviously know more than most of the people I encounter in this forum. Your posts are always really good.

I am one of the ones who contributed to this forum. You said that some of the advice was horrible or something.

Did I say some horrible things? If so, what were they? I would like to learn more, and if I have got things wrong, I would like to know what they were so I can learn to be better.

Thanks in advance for your reply.
 
dgiharris

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Since you asked I will critique your post

Preflop 3x just isn't enough live. I would say at a $1/$2 table a good preflop raise should be $10~$15.

Its not about raising $10 - $15 but rather raising to achieve the desired result. When I have AA, KK, QQ I want to raise the most that I think my villains will call. At most 1/2nl tables, villains are happy to call a $20 or even $25 raise so if I have AA, KK, QQ then I'm raising $20 - $25.

it also depends on table dynamics, every table has a "threshold" for pain and its up to us to figure out what those thresholds are. Remember, most live players are rec-fish that are clueless in terms of SPR and stack sizes. They didn't drive 40 minutes to the casino to fold their :ah4::10h4: pretty sooottteeedd hands...

So when we raise with our value hands it should be achieve a desired result that is dependant on what the table is calling and effective stack sizes. this isn't to say $10 - $15 raises are bad. My point is really that we need to be observant on what the table is willing to call and adjust according to the result we want. When I have strong value hands I'm raising the MOST they will call. When I have hands like AK, AQ, KQ I "may" size my raise differently so I can maneuver post flop and raise $10 - $15 or I may raise $25 just depends on stack sizes and table dynamics...

In short, the theory of equity still holds. When we have majority equity we want more money in the pot. So if we have AK, AQ and our villains are calling us with J8 and 97 its still correct for us to raise more preflop...

Or put another way, its never incorrect to get more money into the pot when we have majority equity vs our opponents.

....
Post-flop, bet enough to give them incorrect odds to draw (if you have a made hand or huge draw).

If we have a made hand absolutely we should prison rape them with offensive overbets and charge them. However, if we have a big draw, the decision to bet or not depends on if we feel we have fold equity. If we have fold equity then absolutely we need to be semibluffing our big draws. If we don't have fold equity then correct play is to draw for as cheap as possible and if we can draw for free even better :)

...
Many pots will be multi-way. Watch out for landmines. And like the others said, if these passive s***-for-brains villains raise you, proceed with extreme caution..
Completely agree. Never go broke in a limpfest 6-way pot. When a passive rec-fish raises you, you better be near nutted.

....
Don't slow play (unless you flop like the eternal nuts).

Agree, never slow play. Even if you have the nuts. Its not so much about having the nuts but rather if villains have hands that can pay you off.

Other week I flopped quads from the SB. I had 66, family pot 9-way, and board was

flop($45) :7d4: :6d4: :6s4:
I led out $30, LP calls, CO calls, BTN raises to $75....

reason I led out was because I knew villains with flush draws, straight draws, and 7x would not fold. So when you have the nuts but there are still plenty of hand combos that can call a bet we should bet. Now if I had KK and the board was

Flop: K K 2 rainbow

then yeah I would check since there aren't that many hand combos that can call a bet...

...
One last tip: Don't be one of these guys raising to 20x preflop cause you are sick of fish sucking out by playing bingo. You will just lose more if you get outdrawn.

This isn't true. If you have the better hand and majority equity then it is NEVER wrong to pump more money into the pot. Period. Doesn't matter the situation.

If I had AA and I knew if I shoved all-in all 8 villains would call then its still +EV to shove all in and get 8 villains to call. If I have AK and all 8 of my villains had lessor hands the logic still holds. equity is equity is equity...

... Value bet the crap out of them, because they will pay you with way worse.

very true

...But remember - if you are getting raised by passive players, only continue with the nuts or near nuts.
.
very true


In live play, you will encounter some of the worst players you could possibly imagine. Don't try fancy plays and bluffs. They are too stupid to pick up what you are trying to lay down.

very true. You can't bluff level 1 players or terribad players.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Thank you so much dgiharris.

I am really happy you took the time to help me out.

I am learning always. I have played a lot of poker, but I still am not there yet (pro). The more I learn, the worse I think I am.
 
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