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Buildingbankroll

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I was playing 1/2 NL hold em this weekend at Harrahs and ran into two hands I would like you guys to analyze for me.

Both hands were played with 6-8 people at the table and an average stack of approx 200.

The first hand I called a pre flop raise of $8.
My had was KJ of spades.

the flop came Kc 10h 5h
The pot was about $30 bucks and it was checked to me in position an I bet $25.
The original raiser calls.
The turn is an 8d.
It is checked to me I raise $25 again and am re raised all in for my final $30 so I call.
The villain reveals Qh 8h with a heart landing on the the river giving him the flush.

I proceed to cash back into the game for $150.

I am dealt KAo a few hands later and raise $16 and get two callers.

the flop comes Kh Js 8c

I raise $30 to try and take down the pot here or maximize profit.
The more aggressive player calls.

the turn is 3d I push all in for $90.

I am quick called and told that I am behind.
The river is a blank and my opponent reveal J3 two pair.

Do you think my raises were appropriate or would you have played these hands any differently?
 
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Big_Rudy

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First hand was just bad luck on the outcome. You got all the money in good and got rivered. My only criticism is the turn bet of $25 into an $80 pot and leaving yourself $30 behind. That bet is too small to accomplish anything and you've left yourself too short to fold to his re-raise. Best just to get it in on the turn. Also it appears you were playing short-stacked. By my calculations, given the actions you described, you must have been playing around $90 in a 1/2 game. Don't do that. Buy-in full, top-off if you get below $170 or so.
 
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Big_Rudy

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Second hand... I think there may still be some bet-sizing issues, but not to the degree of the first hand. $30 into $50ish pot is debateable if you'll get 2 people to fold for that or not since its costing them $30 to have a chance at an $80 pot. Now if you wanted the aggro guy to call in this spot, I think its a good bet. In either case he just made a bad call and got lucky.

Assuming villain really is aggro, and given that fact he just called the flop, and given that the turn is an apparent brick, I have no problem with the turn shove at this point. Again, he made a poor play early and just happened to get lucky.
 
JusSumguy

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Whenever you sit at a cash table, one of your first tasks is to gauge what the table will call/fold to.

You need to get your bets big enough so you get one caller, if any.

So, my verdict is that the PFR wasn't big enough.

-
 
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Big_Rudy

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Whenever you sit at a cash table, one of your first tasks is to gauge what the table will call/fold to.

You need to get your bets big enough so you get one caller, if any.

So, my verdict is that the PFR wasn't big enough.

-

I think this is an idea that is really, really overlooked. Everyone just gets into the habit of raising 3x, 4x, or whatever. Have a goal for the hand. Do you want a caller, or would you like everyone to fold? What size bet will accomplish that AT THIS PARTICULAR TABLE?
 
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Buildingbankroll

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Thanks for the comments guys. This was on a trip and I was only playing with 300 bucks total for the trip so I broke it into three sessions with only $100 trying to double up and get as much play as possible. I could have put $200 in and maybe next time I will go with around 400 so I can sit with the max twice next time. Overall the $30 bet was to get one person out and unless I was re raised after the flop I was most likely pushing if a rag fell on the turn which I though one had.

I would have imagined the 16 would have been enough to get just one caller but when the villain said what the heck 16 sounds like a good number the man in the small blind called as well. I feel that the $30 would be good for value and his call would have to be way off with the pot odds.

Next time I will most likely play with a bigger stack. The $25 bet on the turn in the first hand was small but at the same time I figured either way he would call. I suppose if he missed his draw I may not have got paid out for my last $30 sitting in front of me.
 
MediaBLITZ

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I'm not sure why but I get the sense you acted without a plan or much thought or caution about your opponents. Also, since this was not even alluded to - I have to guess you have little respect or understanding for position.

Don't know what else or how you had played but doesn't look like you were getting much respect - which makes playing top pair even more difficult, especially past the flop.

You can't spend your whole stack on just top pair - it's not a good investment. Seems you were impatient and trying to hit a big score.
 
Jillychemung

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Really only have 2 things to say about these hands, short stacks and poor bet sizing.
 
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Buildingbankroll

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Okay in the first hand that I played where I got drawn on I had position and the raiser was in the small blind and checked to me each time before check raising me all in with a pair of 8s on the turn. I had put him on a draw with the hesitant call on the flop. I felt his reraise on the turn was just due to the small amount of money I had left in front of me.

The other hand I had played were all premium hands I was playing conservatively since there was a few really aggressive players. I was looking to double up by running one of their junk hands into a premium hand.

I had seen this aggressive player call a pre flop raise of $21 with 36 and the flop came K K 5 everyone checked and the flop came 2. There was a raise of 15 and then a re raise to 41. He called the 41 and hit his gut shot straight with a 4.

So when I was playing KA I was almost positive 95% that I was ahead after the flop. I had middle position and the aggressive player had position on me. I followed up with $30 into a $50 pot because I wanted to make him pay to draw on me. A three looked like a rag to me and something that would not have helped his hand. I believe this player would have re raised my $30 if he had trips or two pair on the flop. So I moved in on the turn to stop him from drawing to a miracle river. I was not trying to make a quick score I legitimately thought that I had the best hand.
 
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Buildingbankroll

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So what would be a more appropriate bet when hitting the King on the flop? The size of the pot?
 
Jillychemung

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Your playing a live game where folks come to give away their money, they don't come to fold and odds don't matter to them. Adjust your game for the way the table is playing and make people make decisions earlier in the hand.

1st hand, 3-bet to $35, shove the flop.

2nd hand, raise preflop to $32 and shove the flop.

Yeah yeah I know it sounds ridiculous to be playing this style of poker BUT it's what works in these situations.

You have to find the point at which you are most likely to get heads up and get your $$$ in ahead. If all you are playing for is to make a big score then wait for AA/KK and shove preflop, at a casino you're likely to get a caller anyway.
 
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sactokid544

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There are like two posts in this thread saying the PFR wasn't big enough...I think that's kinda dumb honestly.

The kid opened for $16 pre in a 1/2 game. Sounds pretty standard to me. Why are we trying to open-raise bigger pre? In 200NL live, open-raises to 12-16 are pretty standard.

I understand OP said villain previously called $21 pre with 63. But we don't really know the circumstances. For example, was there a limping train, then villain limped with 63 and someone popped it to $21? Basically, we have no proof that villain will call an open raise to $32 pre with J3.

What we do know is than any villain will more likely call an open raise to $16 because it's a pretty standard raise in that type of game. And since we know villain calls raises with weak hands, what's wrong with raising to $16?

I understand the idea that if villain will call an open raise to $100 with 63, then you should raise to $100 to get max value from weaker hands. But since we don't know that, I think OP made the right decision to open-raise to $16.

Also, most live players begin to turn fishy once the pot becomes multiway. Basically, if there is a limper then a raise to $32, most villains will call it. But calling a $32 open-raise pre? Even the most fish of fish have a hard time calling that pre in a 1/2 game.

I believe that, in a 1/2 live game, as you increase your opening raise sizing, you are beginning to polarize villains ranges to the stronger side. However, this is for open-raising only.
 
Jillychemung

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There are like two posts in this thread saying the PFR wasn't big enough...I think that's kinda dumb honestly.

The kid opened for $16 pre in a 1/2 game. Sounds pretty standard to me. Why are we trying to open-raise bigger pre? In 200NL live, open-raises to 12-16 are pretty standard.

I'm assuming from the OP's post that he's been at the table long enough to see what happens, in general, with different preflop opens. The 1st hand he flat calls a 4xBB open and from the description it looks like there are 4 players to the flop. The 2nd hand he raises to $16 (assuming over a few limpers) and still gets 2 callers. With his choice of stack size + bankroll and the passive calling the table is doing, IMHO, he needs to play one of two ways.

1) Passive - limp/call preflop with a wide range, pot build with premium hands, flop the nuts (nuts = flush, straights, top 2p, never top pair) and value town or flop a big draw and check/call to see the turn then give up or value town
2) Aggressive - play premium hands, overbet preflop to scoop the dead money or get it heads up and shove almost all flops

With style 1) you are going to have lots of multi-way hands and even AA is barely better than 50% with 3 other players. So you really have to be able to hand read and read the players. You'll be putting a number of smaller amounts into hands that you end up folding and winning smaller pots (for the most parts)

With style 2) you are going to take down a few small pots and then have a few larger pots in which, on average, you'll have a 70%+ win rate.

OP got into the classic live trap of thinking that his raises/actions would be viewed differently by most of the players. Hand #1 with the bet sizing most all live players will call a $8 raise with any suited cards and once they hit the 4-flush they are going to go to the river 90% of the time no matter what it costs. Hand #2 you have a typical see-a-flop player that hit the flop and is willing to see the turn for their idea of a reasonable bet, they could care less about odds. In both of these hands the outcome could have been very much different with style 2.

Sorry to say this Buildingbankroll but you played just like the typical tourist player. Come to the table with an inadequate bankroll, buy-in short and then play exactly the same style of play as every other tourist player at the table.
 
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sactokid544

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I'm assuming from the OP's post that he's been at the table long enough to see what happens, in general, with different preflop opens. The 1st hand he flat calls a 4xBB open and from the description it looks like there are 4 players to the flop. The 2nd hand he raises to $16 (assuming over a few limpers) and still gets 2 callers. With his choice of stack size + bankroll and the passive calling the table is doing, IMHO, he needs to play one of two ways.

1) Passive - limp/call preflop with a wide range, pot build with premium hands, flop the nuts (nuts = flush, straights, top 2p, never top pair) and value town or flop a big draw and check/call to see the turn then give up or value town
2) Aggressive - play premium hands, overbet preflop to scoop the dead money or get it heads up and shove almost all flops

With style 1) you are going to have lots of multi-way hands and even AA is barely better than 50% with 3 other players. So you really have to be able to hand read and read the players. You'll be putting a number of smaller amounts into hands that you end up folding and winning smaller pots (for the most parts)

With style 2) you are going to take down a few small pots and then have a few larger pots in which, on average, you'll have a 70%+ win rate.

OP got into the classic live trap of thinking that his raises/actions would be viewed differently by most of the players. Hand #1 with the bet sizing most all live players will call a $8 raise with any suited cards and once they hit the 4-flush they are going to go to the river 90% of the time no matter what it costs. Hand #2 you have a typical see-a-flop player that hit the flop and is willing to see the turn for their idea of a reasonable bet, they could care less about odds. In both of these hands the outcome could have been very much different with style 2.

Sorry to say this Buildingbankroll but you played just like the typical tourist player. Come to the table with an inadequate bankroll, buy-in short and then play exactly the same style of play as every other tourist player at the table.
I see. I was just under the assumption that all action folded to OP and he opened for $16.

If he is raising to $16 over a few limpers, I agree, raise more pre.

Also, OP, as stated, buy-in max. If you can't buy-in max, don't play.

And hey, I frequently travel and play in many states! I'm a tourist too! lol
 
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