Limping Or Calling Min Raise - Several In Pot

I know limping is frowned upon by many, and many live by the rule "If it's good enough to play, it's good enough for a raise".

Of all poker hands in a cash game, I think my favourite to play is a small Suited A on the Button, or one of the Blinds. Big pockets obviously have the best chance by far to win a pot, but it has it's disadvantages. I don't limp with big pocket cards, EVER, recipe for disaster IMHO. You raise big, it's hard to get action. You get caller(s) and you have to think what they're on if your hand doesn't improve on any of the streets, and obviously, the deeper you go into the hand, the better chance you have of getting beaten if your hand doesn't improve.

With a small suited A, a flush is what you're looking for, with other possibilities like a straight, 2 pair, etc. Because you have very little in the pot, it's extremely easy to get away from if you don't get anything on the flop. Your hand can be fairly well disguised as you haven't opened or raised, so players aren't focused on your play and what you might have.

If you're on the blinds, check to see what everyone else is doing while you're figuring your plan, whether it's a fold because nothing hit, or your pot odds if the Flop was good to you. You have a flush draw?? Sweet!!! If it hits, you probably got the nuts!! For every bb you have to put in the pot, there 1 for each player going in there too unless bets get stupid. (I find with multiple players in the pot, bets don't seem to get as big as quick as if there's only 2 players.)

Say you're SB with A-2 of H, 3 callers to you and BB checks. Flop comes Q-5-6 rainbow with no hearts. You have a crap hand and if anyone bets anything, you can fold feeling comfy you only put 1/2 a bb into the pot voluntarily. Easy to get away from

So let's say (this exact scenario happened to me today) you're BB with A-4 of Clubs, and UTG raises 1 bb, 4 players call and you call, that's 6 players in the pot, 12 bbs and you have put in 2 (only 1 voluntarily). Pretty good odds so far. Now the flop comes K c - 9 h - 3 c, UTG bets 3bbs, 2 folds, 2 callers and you call. You're on a nut flush draw with 5 bbs into a 24 bb pot. Now you have to execute the plan you were formulating while action was going around the table. You can wait to see what everyone else does, and call or raise, or you can take the lead and bet your thoughts. By now, most paying attention will recognize you're probably on a FD. K is on board and if someone had Qx of C, you have the opportunity to get paid off big if the flush hits, or he might fold giving you a decent sized pot. If the Flush hits and nobody else is on it, there might be a set or 2 pair that can pay you off.

Now, those who aren't familiar with hand odds yet, believe me when I say this isn't as easy as it may sound. With suited cards, there's only a 6.5% chance of making your flush. However, if you have 4 to a flush on the flop, I believe there's something like a 1 in 3 chance you will hit the flush by the river.

So, to summarize, if you have a Suited A and can see a flop for cheap, think about going for it. My opinion is a small Suited A has the best ratio for risk Vs. reward of any other hand.

I'd like to see what other more experienced players think of this. Make sense? Or am I out to lunch?

Jamie

Was wondering why you thinking limping is dumb? If you have 99 and you raise everytime, players will be able to put you on certain hands. I'm not saying limp or raise 50 percent of the time, but I think that mixing it up with 75% raises 25% calls, especially in late position can make you almost impossible to read. Would love to hear your thoughts though. Thanks

Byrnsiey, some (maybe many) say you shouldn't limp. I've read that is several blogs, guides and write-ups, and by some here on CC.

I agree, and have no issue limping occasionally, especially with hands described above, QK O, small pairs, etc. But like I said (and this is personal experience) I never NEVER limp with a monster hand, nor should anyone else unless you are 100% absolutely positive you can trap the villain.

I agree with Byrnsiey. I think the key is variety. You can't just play the same way all the time. People will eventually figure you out.

byrnsiey330 said:

Was wondering why you thinking limping is dumb? If you have 99 and you raise everytime, players will be able to put you on certain hands. I'm not saying limp or raise 50 percent of the time, but I think that mixing it up with 75% raises 25% calls, especially in late position can make you almost impossible to read. Would love to hear your thoughts though. Thanks

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99 is a good hand to call behind or raise with if you have position. Flopping a set in a multiway pot can have big pay outs but that is the only way you can win the hand. If any overcard comes out in a multiway pot, you are folding to any bet. You really don't like undercards too because other villians could have a low pocket pair set, or straight draws because the undercards smash the villains limping range.

On the other hand if you raised and isolate in position with 99 you are giving yourself 2 ways to win the pot, making the villains fold or hitting your set, or just showing down the best hand if they miss completely.

So with all that said, don't you think raising is the better long term option?

Also when you talk about balance, if someone sees you raise 3BB with 99 they are not going to think you have 99 the next time you raise 3BB... The point of balancing your range is to balance your RANGE not just one hand you play. If you raise 3BB everytime you open a pot rather it be AA, 99, AQ or even 98s then it is hard for villain to put you on a hand, preflop atleast.

Also to the OP, I don't mind calling another big blind from the blinds with a suited ace if I know there is a villain that is deep enough to make the call worthwhile if I hit. If the limpers in front of you are sitting at 50BB and you have A8s in the BB, you may want to fold. Another thing is if you have a weak suited A and an A flops, just fold it. Don't forget why you called preflop to begin with. One last edit, lol, if you do flop a nut flush draw on an unpaired board, don't be afraid to play it aggressively, I don't really like calling behind with 4 other villains in the pot when you flop a nut flush draw. If you bet, others with flush draws will still call and you will have the betting lead if you do whiff. Playing a little more aggressively also helps build the pot and gives you more than 1 way to win the pot. All in all, I don't like passively playing a NUT flush draw(If you have a 3rd nut flush draw then yeah, be passive sometimes)

IPlay said:

99 is a good hand to call behind or raise with if you have position. Flopping a set in a multiway pot can have big pay outs but that is the only way you can win the hand. If any overcard comes out in a multiway pot, you are folding to any bet. You really don't like undercards too because other villians could have a low pocket pair set, or straight draws because the undercards smash the villains limping range.

On the other hand if you raised and isolate in position with 99 you are giving yourself 2 ways to win the pot, making the villains fold or hitting your set, or just showing down the best hand if they miss completely.

So with all that said, don't you think raising is the better long term option?

Also when you talk about balance, if someone sees you raise 3BB with 99 they are not going to think you have 99 the next time you raise 3BB... The point of balancing your range is to balance your RANGE not just one hand you play. If you raise 3BB everytime you open a pot rather it be AA, 99, AQ or even 98s then it is hard for villain to put you on a hand, preflop atleast.

Also to the OP, I don't mind calling another big blind from the blinds with a suited ace if I know there is a villain that is deep enough to make the call worthwhile if I hit. If the limpers in front of you are sitting at 50BB and you have A8s in the BB, you may want to fold. Another thing is if you have a weak suited A and an A flops, just fold it. Don't forget why you called preflop to begin with. One last edit, lol, if you do flop a nut flush draw on an unpaired board, don't be afraid to play it aggressively, I don't really like calling behind with 4 other villains in the pot when you flop a nut flush draw. If you bet, others with flush draws will still call and you will have the betting lead if you do whiff. Playing a little more aggressively also helps build the pot and gives you more than 1 way to win the pot. All in all, I don't like passively playing a NUT flush draw(If you have a 3rd nut flush draw then yeah, be passive sometimes)

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I agree it might be most profitable to always raise, but playing 87s every single time you have it isn't profitable, but varying your play and mixing it up does make it more profitable. If I were to compare it to anything, I would compare it to specializing in economics. If you only play a hand one way then you can't reach the long term potential you could if you played the same hands different ways. It keeps your opponent guessing, and it builds a metagame for yourself.

IPlay said:

On the other hand if you raised and isolate in position with 99 you are giving yourself 2 ways to win the pot, making the villains fold or hitting your set, or just showing down the best hand if they miss completely.

So with all that said, don't you think raising is the better long term option?

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I'm curious about your thoughts on position with a hand like 99. From CO to BB, (depending on previous action obviously), I'm normally raising with that. UTG or something a bit later, I take the table into consideration more-so.

Also to the OP, I don't mind calling another big blind from the blinds with a suited ace if I know there is a villain that is deep enough to make the call worthwhile if I hit. If the limpers in front of you are sitting at 50BB and you have A8s in the BB, you may want to fold. Another thing is if you have a weak suited A and an A flops, just fold it.

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Not quite sure I agree with the bolded statement. If you can play the board to get 20-30 bbs into the pot from a few players (which may not be hard to do) with only a few bbs investment from your own stack, isn't that worth it?

As for the weak A where A hits the flop, you have top pair with a garbage kicker which in my book = lost hand more often that not, or at least may be very expensive to win. Same reason I'm not fussy about hands like Q-10 or K-J, pair either of them and you still have less than TK, not a hand I like. I'd like to read your thoughts on that too.

Don't forget why you called preflop to begin with. One last edit, lol, if you do flop a nut flush draw on an unpaired board, don't be afraid to play it aggressively, I don't really like calling behind with 4 other villains in the pot when you flop a nut flush draw. If you bet, others with flush draws will still call and you will have the betting lead if you do whiff. Playing a little more aggressively also helps build the pot and gives you more than 1 way to win the pot. All in all, I don't like passively playing a NUT flush draw(If you have a 3rd nut flush draw then yeah, be passive sometimes)

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OK, let's look at this scenario. You're at an aggressive table, you're on SB or BB and you just flopped a nut flush and no pairs on the board. You JUST KNOW that if you check, someone behind you is betting and probably raising too. Isn't this scenario going to be easier to build the pot rather than coming out firing?

byrnsiey330 said:

I agree it might be most profitable to always raise, but playing 87s every single time you have it isn't profitable, but varying your play and mixing it up does make it more profitable. If I were to compare it to anything, I would compare it to specializing in economics. If you only play a hand one way then you can't reach the long term potential you could if you played the same hands different ways. It keeps your opponent guessing, and it builds a metagame for yourself.

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Not sure I agree with that. If you play that hand EVERY time you have it, what's the chances you're going to strike something to make it to SD so everyone else knows what you were holding?? 1 in 15 maybe??? I think it's a hand easily hidden.

IMO, the thing about never limping is an over-statement in response to those players, especially at the entry levels, who limp or limp behind more than they should. Telling them never to limp is either an over-emphatic way of saying to limp less often, or it's said without fully thinking.

As for playing Ax suited from the button or the blinds, I think you have to look at the complete picture. For instance, from the button, open-limping and limping behind are different, and the number of people in the pot before you can matter too. Similarly, from the SB, there are different situations to consider. And from the BB, you can't limp or limp behind, so you're looking at check or raise decisions, not call or raise.

And this is before you get to considering the other players.

Generalizing over the various situation, I suspect it's not really profitable to limp Ax suited and to play flop big or drop. The best you can reasonably hope for is to be marginal profitable, and that's being optimistic. You may not lose much either, but overall, how much reason is there to play these hands, and how much potential for improved profitability?

Note that I'm not saying never to limp them, but rather to look more deeply into when it's actually your best option.

Arjonius said:

SNIP<<<< As for playing Ax suited from the button or the blinds, I think you have to look at the complete picture. For instance, from the button, open-limping and limping behind are different, and the number of people in the pot before you can matter too. Similarly, from the SB, there are different situations to consider. And from the BB, you can't limp or limp behind, so you're looking at check or raise decisions, not call or raise. >>>>SNIP

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If there's no callers or maybe 1, and I'm button (as your example) I'm raising or folding, depending on players. Very little value in that situation, not that I see anyway. In the SB or BB, if the board allows me to see the flop for a 1/2 blind or free with 4 or 5 ahead of me, all the more power to yours truly.

Another thing I forgot to mention in the OP, I've learned I don't like to have a VPIP ~ 15-18 with a PFR close to that. I think it cuts down on the action I get when I do get "A HAND". Limping in this situation, with med suited connectors in late position or on small pairs kind of artificially inflates my VPIP and widens the gap between those 2 stats, and since I've been doing that, I seem to be getting more callers on premiums.

SeaRun said:

If there's no callers or maybe 1, and I'm button (as your example) I'm raising or folding, depending on players. Very little value in that situation, not that I see anyway. In the SB or BB, if the board allows me to see the flop for a 1/2 blind or free with 4 or 5 ahead of me, all the more power to yours truly.

Another thing I forgot to mention in the OP, I've learned I don't like to have a VPIP ~ 15-18 with a PFR close to that. I think it cuts down on the action I get when I do get "A HAND". Limping in this situation, with med suited connectors in late position or on small pairs kind of artificially inflates my VPIP and widens the gap between those 2 stats, and since I've been doing that, I seem to be getting more callers on premiums.

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Forgive me if I reas the last part wrong because I am kind of tired haha. But having a wide gap in VPIP and PFR makes your range preflop face up since you are probably limping speculative hands and raising premiums.

IPlay said:

Forgive me if I reas the last part wrong because I am kind of tired haha. But having a wide gap in VPIP and PFR makes your range preflop face up since you are probably limping speculative hands and raising premiums.

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I don't think you read it wrong, but as an example, which I should have given, I'm talking about a VPIP of 20 and a PFR of about 15. Not tight together but not a gaping hole of 15 points either.

There is nothing wrong in calling a limp when you know for sure that the limper ain't folding with 4-5 BB raise. The important thing to remember is that in a limped pot TPTK and even an over pair are really not all that good a hand. You should have minimum 2 pair to play aggressively after the flop.

Oh and trips with weak kicker is also a very dangerous hand in a limped pot. It happens very often that when a pair comes on the flop in a limped pot that 2 people have flopped trips.

The reason why you should not open limp is because someone in position might try to steal the pot without actually having a better hand than you.

If you only open raise premium hands then you make it very obvious for those players who notice.

if your open limping 99 more then 2% of the time you should pick a new game

and that 2% is reserved for people you have history with and HUNL

SeaRun said:

I don't think you read it wrong, but as an example, which I should have given, I'm talking about a VPIP of 20 and a PFR of about 15. Not tight together but not a gaping hole of 15 points either.

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It's not that simple. For instance, if you're a superior post-flop player, you can call wider pre-, especially in position and/or with deep stacks, so that can contribute toward having a gap that's somewhat wider than 2-3. But without a meaningful post-flop skill advantage, it's simply not a great idea to try to put yourself into more marginal hands than the ones you get into anyway.

Arjonius said:

It's not that simple. For instance, if you're a superior post-flop player, you can call wider pre-, especially in position and/or with deep stacks, so that can contribute toward having a gap that's somewhat wider than 2-3. But without a meaningful post-flop skill advantage, it's simply not a great idea to try to put yourself into more marginal hands than the ones you get into anyway.

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Point taken Arjon, thanks. There's no doubt I need to study postflop play more, I admit I'm kind of weak at that.

I'm curious about the bolded part of your post. Let's look at what can happen if you're Button, SB or BB with A-3 of hearts:

• Flop is 3 hearts - Nut flush but have to be wary of straight flush or if the board pairs on later streets
• Flop is a brick with no hearts - Easy fold
• Flop has 2 hearts - I have a 1 in 3 chance of making a flush by the River. I think that's decent odds IF there are 4 or 5 bbs going in the pot for every one I put in, plus there's some betting equity there if players are folding easily.
• Hit an A on the flop - Garbage hand usually, easy fold
• Hit 2 pair on the flop - Questionable maybe, but now we're getting into the postflop skills you're talking about.

So, I'm not arguing or saying you're wrong, nothing of the sort. Preflop, yes Suited small A could be considered a marginal hand, but if the board is willing to let me see a flop for cheap or free, shouldn't that be taken advantage of?

SeaRun said:

I'm curious about the bolded part of your post. Let's look at what can happen if you're Button, SB or BB with A-3 of hearts:

• Flop is 3 hearts - Nut flush but have to be wary of straight flush or if the board pairs on later streets
• Flop is a brick with no hearts - Easy fold
• Flop has 2 hearts - I have a 1 in 3 chance of making a flush by the River. I think that's decent odds IF there are 4 or 5 bbs going in the pot for every one I put in, plus there's some betting equity there if players are folding easily.
• Hit an A on the flop - Garbage hand usually, easy fold
• Hit 2 pair on the flop - Questionable maybe, but now we're getting into the postflop skills you're talking about.

So, I'm not arguing or saying you're wrong, nothing of the sort. Preflop, yes Suited small A could be considered a marginal hand, but if the board is willing to let me see a flop for cheap or free, shouldn't that be taken advantage of?

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It's not so simple. Your list doesn't take into account the relative probabilities of each type of flop or the associated likely amounts won or lost. You don't lose much when you limp-fold, but since it happens a lot, those small losses add up.

The likelihood of being paid off when you hit the flop in different ways matters too. Plus the latter can be pretty player- dependent; e.g. you're likely to win less with your flopped flush vs a good opponent than from a fish.

Another consideration is that the 1 in 3 chance of completing your flush draw pre-supposes seeing both the turn and the river. So while you have odds to see both streets when there's limited action, what about when there is action? Calling the flop because you have pot odds based on seeing two more streets can get expensive when you aren't given odds on the turn.

Also Ax isn't always behind on a A-high flop. And even when you are out-kicked, you can win some of those pots, mainly IP. The opponent limped pre-, so he's also likely to think his kicker may not be good. Plus sometimes, neither kicker will play.