Limping and betting...

Everybody here says, you should always bet into a pot. At micro cash games, why not limp speculative hands? If you are at a table of a ton of calling stations that play any range, why risk more money when you know you will probably see the flop for a Call? If you are in mid to late position with 3 callers in front of you and have a hand like 89 suited, why not just call and see the flop? If it does not hit, you fold. If it hits big, you stand to stack up.

However, if you bet into the pot and miss, you have no fold equity because they will call a continuation bet or even a 3 bet.

Raising is always the best option but you do have to mix it up. So i don't have a problem just flatting in late position with speculative hands like low pocket pairs, suited connectors, etc

no, you do not have to mix it up.

If your range is face-up then you need to add some deception but that doesn't require "mixing it up."

There are times when your range comprise only a scant few combos in certain spots, so you may need to use the "same" hand in different ranges (you could split it up by suits, for instance: you could flat a 4-b vs. someone who 4-bets reasonably wide with black aces and red aces and 5-bet with the other 4 combos).

But this probably isn't what you mean by mixing it up either.

Basically what you are saying is that there is an optimal way to play a hand that makes us the most money in a certain spot, and we should mix it up by playing it optimally sometimes and sub-optimally other times. This is not correct.

one of my friends gave me some good advice and its sweet and to the point because i was in a state of wondering whether i should do the same.

bet your hand. if not, you are losing value and equity in your hand.

its very difficult to make it deep in any tournament by not doing so.

lost2qandisa said:

Everybody here says, you should always bet into a pot. At micro cash games, why not limp speculative hands? If you are at a table of a ton of calling stations that play any range, why risk more money when you know you will probably see the flop for a Call? If you are in mid to late position with 3 callers in front of you and have a hand like 89 suited, why not just call and see the flop? If it does not hit, you fold. If it hits big, you stand to stack up.

However, if you bet into the pot and miss, you have no fold equity because they will call a continuation bet or even a 3 bet.

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I won't disagree with you at all. I don't limp extremely often, but I will sometimes in passive tables with speculative hands and pocket pairs. There are plenty of pro's that limp or flat call pre flop a good bit and still play wonderfully.

Something I highly recomend that any poker enthusiast watch is Jason Sumerville's "run it up" series on youtube. It's basically his own personal challenge to start with 50 dollars and play poker up to 10000 dollars and he's recording all of his sessions. You get to see the thinking process of a pro player and iv'e learned a ton from it so far. Of course what he says isn't set in stone, but his playing style differs a good bit from norm. He min raises a ton, is in alot of hands, flat calls in position alot, defends his big blind with just about ATC. It's been eye opening to me to say the least. I haven't tried to copy his style of play at all, I don't think I could if I tried, but he has gotten me better at figuring out ranges for the villain.

But long story short, flat calling or limping isn't always a terrible play.

baudib1 said:

no, you do not have to mix it up.

If your range is face-up then you need to add some deception but that doesn't require "mixing it up."

There are times when your range comprise only a scant few combos in certain spots, so you may need to use the "same" hand in different ranges (you could split it up by suits, for instance: you could flat a 4-b vs. someone who 4-bets reasonably wide with black aces and red aces and 5-bet with the other 4 combos).

But this probably isn't what you mean by mixing it up either.

Basically what you are saying is that there is an optimal way to play a hand that makes us the most money in a certain spot, and we should mix it up by playing it optimally sometimes and sub-optimally other times. This is not correct.

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That's not what i meant at all... I have seen Jason Summerville in his run it up series play the same hand in the same position differently depending on the situation. So i don't think mixing it up depending on the situation is wrong.

steveiam said:

That's not what i meant at all... I have seen Jason Summerville in his run it up series play the same hand in the same position differently depending on the situation. So i don't think mixing it up depending on the situation is wrong.

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Same hand in different situation is not the same and is not mixing it up either.

baudib1 said:

Same hand in different situation is not the same and is not mixing it up either.

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I think our meaning of terminology differs so we will have to agree to disagree.

lost2qandisa said:

Everybody here says, you should always bet into a pot. At micro cash games, why not limp speculative hands? If you are at a table of a ton of calling stations that play any range, why risk more money when you know you will probably see the flop for a Call? If you are in mid to late position with 3 callers in front of you and have a hand like 89 suited, why not just call and see the flop? If it does not hit, you fold. If it hits big, you stand to stack up.

However, if you bet into the pot and miss, you have no fold equity because they will call a continuation bet or even a 3 bet.

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Better not openlimp all. Online at your every limp any regular you will raise. And put a continuation bet almost 100% of cases.80% of cases it is necessary u need to open raise..

i agree with OP, limping especially in late positions with speculative hands are +ev in the long run, because not only you see a cheap flop but you can hit a mounster like the highest straight, and that will make you win lots of money. just try to avoid these play in early positions as there are many chances of someone raising and re rerasing, making this play -ev on the long run.

limping is almost exclusively bad. It might workout but you probably lost value. At the higher levels of play you very occasionally see pros get "tricky" and try weird stuff but not because its +ev, rather because in a live game they think that in one individual circumstance they can confuse their opponent. As a systematic approach to the game occasional limping just sounds like a bad idea.

^ the idea that limping in late position is +ev really makes me want to puke. You will almost never hit a big hand and even when you do your opponents have RANDOM hands in the blinds that won't give you action. When you raise and your opponent calls, they have given you action and you can create a hand range for them. Also, you let them see free cards when they are obligated to pay the blinds. Lets say you limp in the cutoff with 89 suited, well first of all if im in the button im raising every time, but lets just say a bad player folds the button. the small blind calls and big blind checks. Now you are up against two opponents with 9 high.... and you think that's +ev? NICE.
So the flop comes 10K2, a 3 straight and middlepair
Its checked to you and you bet, SB folds BB calls
turn is another K
you bet again and BB flats
river 4 you check/call and BB shows K3 offsuit. SOOO +ev
those are the spots you find yourself in when you limp in late position, those are the spots you find yourself in when you are BAD at poker

Limping in pots is the biggest leak in my poker game and generally its very weak. Being the aggressor is always better than just limping IMO.

I have seen players re raising with 98suited from early position, and it was even 5 bet, then being agressive at the flop when A came and making other players to fold their KK, so being the aggressor is always better than flat calling but with a lot of calling station even if you had AA its not good situation, so I just hate to play against players calling with 7 4 any raise, it is sick..

If you have multiple limpers that you will have position on, limping with a speculative hand such as suited connectors or a small pocket pair is perfectly acceptable. You will have the pot odds for the times when you do make your hands, and you can get away from you hand cheaply if it doesn't work out. The times you shouldn't limp are when you would be out of position or you don't have other limpers in the pot with you. Under those conditions you should still be raising.

Always opening for a raise is correct for limit, but in no limit there can be good reasons to open limp, and especially to limp behind. The problems associated with open limping is poor post flop play, and bad relative position. Contrary to the common opinion, there is no one set winning style of no limit play. Adjusting to the table is more important than raising every time you open a pot.

wanderingthehall said:

If you have multiple limpers that you will have position on, limping with a speculative hand such as suited connectors or a small pocket pair is perfectly acceptable. You will have the pot odds for the times when you do make your hands, and you can get away from you hand cheaply if it doesn't work out. The times you shouldn't limp are when you would be out of position or you don't have other limpers in the pot with you. Under those conditions you should still be raising.

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Some good points

depends on positioning and flop-ability of the hand, i would be fine overlimping a wide range in CO and button ( hands i wouldn't wanna raise but still have nice potential) but would like multiple people in the pot

open limping is somewhat bad because it becomes hard to balance our range

you can limp every now and then in very specific situations to back raise but there has to be a decent bit of metagame set up for that and likely nobody will care enough to notice it in micros

What if you are at a table with a few calling stations like in a casino? People will call expensive bets with trash.

If you are against more aggressive players they will not let you see the flop as cheaply