THE LIMP CALLERS....PLEASE HELP

Alright guys...........
Been a tournament player for a while now and have slowly made the switch to cash.
Playing in the local casino's (1 - 1# i have been struggling to get heads up play, althought its not very accurate to categorise myself its easier so lets say im a TAG, the casino's i play in are full of nits and passive fish........
With the majoriy being nits i have widened my range when in late position, and the majority of the time heads up with these fish or nits i can out play them.
This however leads me to my problem, when it comes to me say on the button, they are usually around 4 limpers infront of, lets say i make a standard raise #3 - 4 x bb + 1 for each limper# if 1 of the blinds call, the first limper calls, then the rest convince themselves that they are priced in and call. Therefore im 5's up with a mediocre hand and obviously cant bet into the pot unless the flop is kind.
Do you suggest i buy in for the maximum, deepstack and over raise? therefore only being called by hands better or even dominating my range?
Or do i let these nits and fish get away with and take each other out, while i wait for premium hands?
Let me give you and examples, 3 limpers in the pot #i've folded# goes round to the big bling # a nit# who hasn't raised since hes been their, including the B's their is £5 in the pot, he raised to £12.00 he gets called with Q-J off, the flop comes Q rag rag, raiser pushes fish calls and wins the hand. I ask him what did you put him on? His blanks expression tells me that he hadn't even thought about it, but says something like tens #the gus had 7's), their is so much money to take of these guys i just dont think im capitilizing on it by being tight aggressive.
Please help any suggestions or advice welcome .....................

Cut out trying to iso with mediocore hands. It's obviously not working. Do make sure you're still raising limpers for value though (you're hand doesn't need to be premium for this).

Also don't talk to the fishes about how/why they play bad. Just note the play and move on to the next hand.

It is difficult to sit there and watch - because their ignorance will make them money (off each other) and you think you need to get in that action with your "mediocre" hands because you know you are the better strategist.
STOP THINKING THAT.

YOU CANNOT OUT PLAY THEM - STOP THINKING YOU CAN
This is not an indictment against you!!! They are not sophisticated enough to recognize, read or interpret your actions - this is why you must be very tight and very aggressive. Most of them have no idea you haven't played a hand in the last 4 orbits and probably hold a monster. Most of them are convinced you are trying to bluff them and there is no way they can allow that.

You have to get the habit of assigning your opponents skill levels. You will find many iof them are only playing their cards and cannot understand why they would need to assign a range to others when they hold such a great hand like QJ.

You have already found out you can't ISO - because they want to see the flop. They are playing roulette and have to see where the ball lands before getting out.
Imagine my shock with AA on the button and 6 limpers and I raise 9xBB and get 3 callers - WTF?!?!?!
Callers included QQ, AJ and KJ - yeah, I took it down - first hand I played in about 35 minutes.

Nice post MediaBLITZ, i do agree entirley. So you think i shouldn't be trying isolate? I think you are right, it just can be annoying when you wait 4 hours, pick up ace k, get 4 callers and the board comes 4 5 9. It just seems to be whenever im short handed with these players i increase my stack quicker.

WVHillbilly vbmenu_register("postmenu_1857179", true);

Excuse my ignorance, but is
Cut out trying to iso with mediocore hands. It's obviously not working. Do make sure you're still raising limpers for value though (you're hand doesn't need to be premium for this).

Not a contridiction? Not trying to make a point just intreaged by what you meant bruv.

Means you can raise with things like KQ which is a raise for value rather than marginal holdings just to try and isolate someone who limped. Basically just playing straightforward.

I mean raising a bunch of limpers with hands like AK/KQ still has a ton of value. Doing it with Q7s or 33, not so much.

Thebabyfaceassasin said:

Nice post MediaBLITZ, i do agree entirley. So you think i shouldn't be trying isolate? I think you are right, it just can be annoying when you wait 4 hours, pick up ace k, get 4 callers and the board comes 4 5 9. It just seems to be whenever im short handed with these players i increase my stack quicker.

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Don't get me worng - it is always preferable to isolate but in this case it usually means going from 7 to 3 opponents on the flop. You have to recognize when it is doable or not. A lot of these guys you are up against are going to limp in UTG because they have a small suited connector or small pair (or A8, or broadway draw) because they read from Phil Gordon or heard suited connectors or small PP are good to go to a flop with. They totally missed the part about position. So when they get raised they feel obliagted to call - they don't like it but they think it is what they are supposed to do. I know because I was one of those guys. I knew it was my mission to get to the flop as cheap as possible with 55 to try to hit a set - but when the raise came there was all this money in the pot and I would rather lose another $20 than see another 5 come out on the flop after I folded. That is the mind set youi are up against. So yes, you want to isolate but sometimes that is just not going to work with the table you are working. Define your overall environment then define each player. A lot of these guy just flat out over value their hands - they see T4 suited and that is a flush draw for them. THIS IS A GOOD THING

But what you have to do is adapt ot your envronment and play accordingly. I will usually stay pretty inactive my first 30-60 minutes at the table just so I can define some things. Once they are defined I can pick my approach/style, pick who I'm getting in a hand with, pick who I want to avoid. These are some of the key elements that make poker profitable versus just another casino game.

WVHillbilly said:

I mean raising a bunch of limpers with hands like AK/KQ still has a ton of value. Doing it with Q7s or 33, not so much.

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And one reason Hillbilly is saying this is for the exact thing I've been talking about - they are certainly going to call you and you are more than likely WAY ahead (since they will be the ones calling with Q7s or 33).

In a nutshell - don't be tempted into playing their game - trying to turn medicore into great. More times than not mediocre either stays mediocre or gets worse.

Yes it is going to get boring.
Yes, you will get sucked out on (by T4 suited).
Yes, you will have to lay down really good hands.
Yes, in the long term you will be profitable.

Thanks for your post on this subject guys.. I've learned alot about why I get sucked out on so much from some guy who goes all in on 9 Q off....

Raise bigger.
Don't worry too much if you miss the flop multiway, chances are heads up against an uber fish your not taking the pot down without the best hand either.

At least online you can play more hands/hr so more chances to bust a fish. I don't play at casinos but at live games at friends' places, they can get ridiculous. Mofo calls huge raise with Q6 suited and beats both KK and AA.

It's all up to luck in a usually 4-way, 5-way minimum pot so it's quite difficult to win. It's better to shove with AK+ JJ+ just to thin out the herd (cuz a 10xBB raise ain't gonna do it) and limp with suited connectors and hope to hit big.

blueskies said:

It's better to shove with AK+ JJ+ just to thin out the herd (cuz a 10xBB raise ain't gonna do it) and limp with suited connectors and hope to hit big.

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Maybe at your home games (even my friends aren't that bad). This shouldn't be done at a casino unless your short stacked. Even live fish can find folds to an open shove.

At the casino most think they are better than they are and few are actually working on their game. They are playing poker inbetween trips to the craps/blackjack table and their favorite slot machines . The point is they are gamblers not poker players.
EP and MP it's a raise or fold situation. In late position I'll call some marginal hands to see the flop in multi way pots. I rarely try to 3bet my draws because the reraise isn't making my opponent fold and if I make my hand they will pay off anyway.
1/2 NL at the Casino for me requires a very normal unexciting game style to be profitable.
Pot control when you have a small edge/drawing, smash pot when you're dominant, and value bet on the river.
I get into trouble when I give into urges to "outplay" my opponents. MediaBlitz advice to not outplay your opponents is so good. Your opponent isn't playing, they are gambling. Gamblers are in it for emotion and entertainment reasons weather they admit it or not.