Limit Holdem #1 Part 2

OK so in part 1 we raised with our draw. The SB folds and the BB calls.

The turn card is the 4d.

The BB checks, what's our play here? Check or Bet?

Just so we all remember without having to look it back up again like I did.

Situation #1:

Its folded around to you on the button and you have Js10s, you raise hoping to steal the blinds and if not you have a playable hand. The small blind calls and the BB raises, you call and the SB calls. (Your call here is required getting 7 to 1 on your money)

The flop comes 9h 6s 2s

SB checks, BB bets.

What do you do fold, call or raise? You can post why here.

Now I check to get my free card. I spent an extra $1 on the flop to take control of the hand and see a free $2 card.

I would bet here in hopes of taking it here with the bluff.
I had represented strength here throughout the hand and BB check here shows me he may have missed the river and am pretty sure that he may fold his hand.

First off, thanks for starting these posts. I know zip about limit and I think these will be very informative.

I check this, I mean wasn't that the point of raising the flop bet from the BB? So we could see a free card where the bets get bigger.

Well we intended to check behind here after we raised the flop.

My only problem is that if we do check, it'll be painfully obvious what we're doing, and we'll have a slim-to-nil chance of winning the pot if we don't improve on the river. I suppose it's a good trade-off for the free card though...

meh

ChuckTs said:

My only problem is that if we do check, it'll be painfully obvious what we're doing, and we'll have a slim-to-nil chance of winning the pot if we don't improve on the river.

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MY sentiments exactly, which is why I'd have to bet for the semibluff.

Four things can happen:

1. We get them to fold, and it makes up for the 82% of the time we won't hit our draw

2. They call, we hit our draw, and get paid off nicely

3. We get check-raised...ouch, but unlikely

4. They call, we MISS our draw, but we can still bet out because we've represented strength the entire time.


Hm, 3 pros and one con...I think I'll bet.

Without a very specific read on BB loving showdown (WTSD > 50%) I'd bet this turn every time. With only J-high, there are so many hands that may fold if we bet again that the free card just doesn't make up for the times our semibluff is successful.

... And if I know that BB loves showdowns, I wouldn't have raised the flop.

Much tougher decision than in the first one, at least in my opinion. BB check could mean two things after his call:
a) He is slowplaying a monster and will C/R us
b) He is on a draw that has missed and doesn't want to invest a BB into the pot to see the river /indicate strength

Since we have shown strength by raising on the flop, and that the 4d is likely to be a blank for BB, I bet, because of two things:
a) Might get a better hand to fold (such as a higher flush draw or a pair)
b) I'm probably ahead with my draw or the BB thinks I'm ahead

Checking is also viable, but since our hand hasn't improved on the turn (not even our drawing odds have improved), we get to see a free card. But checking here means that any cards that comes a blank will get the pot away from us (since it screams missed draw).

If opponent C/R, I go into the think tank and see if I have any read on him acting this way on the BB before.

And just to point out, I've read several times our very own F Paullson's articles on limit (the new ones) and they are chock full of great situations that really make you think about the way limit is played in a winning fashion. Very, very useful and fun read.

Please keep in mind that this is LOW STAKES Limit. FP plays at a much higher level that this. The scenerios are specific for low stakes limit.

Ok, here's my answer.

We raised on the flop in order to get a free card on the turn when the bets go up. The play worked and the BB checked to us. We should CHECK here and take the free card that's offered. One of the mistakes players make here is not taking the free card when offered when we are on a draw. I know there is an argument for betting on a bluff or semi-bluff but in this case we are playing low-stakes limit. Most hands at this level go to a showdown and bluffing rarely works. If you have a specific read on your opponent that you think he might lay this down then by all means bet but generally you are better off in the long run in just checking and seeing the river card.

Remember villan can still check raise you. If villan has a big hand and he just saw you reraise the flop he may check to you thinking you will bet so he can check raise. You don't want to be putting too many more chips into the pot without a hand at this point.

As for villan knowing what you are doing, so what. He still can't do anything about it. It also helps you later when you have a big and and do the same thing it gets you paid off when they think you are betting a draw.

On a list of top 10 mistakes players make, not taking the free card on the turn is one of them.

This is different from higher stakes and no-limit play but in low stakes limit the proper play is to check behind and get the free card.

Won't argue with you here MrSnake, but what is our course of action if we miss on the river ? Fold to any bet ? Call ? Reaise ? What if villain still checks it to us ?

Worse case scenario is a 10 showing up on the river and our opponent betting...

jeffred1111 said:

Won't argue with you here MrSnake, but what is our course of action if we miss on the river ? Fold to any bet ? Call ? Reaise ? What if villain still checks it to us ?

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Well if we don't improve, we have to fold to any bet. Villain isn't going to fold to a river raise if a brick drops. Our line doesn't fit any hand big enough to make him fold to a river raise.

jeffred1111 said:

Worse case scenario is a 10 showing up on the river and our opponent betting...

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I don't think that would be that terrible...He's shown little to no strength, and I'd expect him to be holding two big unpaired cards trying to scare a smaller pair out. I'd just show it down.

Remeber that in Limit games bets saved is just as important as bets won. So If a blank hits we're done witht the hand. Villan almost for sure has a better hand than us and he won't be folding to a river bluff bet and there's no reason to call if he bets with jack high.