Let's talk Limit Poker, shall we?

cally

cally

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Hey Cardschat!

I will briefly introduce myself I am cally or Cal, and my strength is live poker. I do play online from time to time (mostly MTTs / SnGs) but my passion really comes from live poker.

I recently found out that a casino near me offers limit poker which is great for where I'm at right now. I played a lot of 1/2NL with some pretty profitable results over a few visits, however it is not a game I can continue playing with my schedule. In other words it would be easy to blow through my bankroll because I cannot study NL like I used to.

Which brings me here, now I will be going to a limit table which is a bit of change. I am looking forward to a softer field even if the profits do not come as fast, because I am more concerned with upping my game and being profitable over a period of time. I created this thread in hopes to receive advice on playing limit poker (Micro 2/5, 5/10 to start, then will probably play 10/20 regularly). A sound piece of advice a peer gave to me was to watch the bluffs, they do not catch like they do in NL. So now I look for your guys tips and opinions to be able to crush the micro Limit. Thank you guys for reading & looking forward to hearing your contributions!

Cal
 
NCDaddy

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Two completely different animals, really. I think you have to play tighter in limit than NL because most of your hands, especially in micro and low limits, go to showdown. You've got to have a hand. You're not going to bluff people off hands as easy. They don't call it "no fold'em hold 'em" for nothing. Limit is much more a math game than NL is (I'm not saying NL isn't a math game because it is).
 
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You got it wrong, you need to be looser in limit plus your getting way better prices to get to showdown...
 
cally

cally

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You got it wrong, you need to be looser in limit plus your getting way better prices to get to showdown...

How much would you open up your range? It's very tough to make someone fold in limit, even firing 3 bullets. Also, how big of a factor is table image in limit? I don't think I would be too concerned, only with the fact of how tight/loose one player is playing, that's about it..
 
NCDaddy

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Actually I don't..but that's o.k.
 
NCDaddy

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Actually I don't..but that's o.k.
To clarify, I mean starting hands. I get the price to call....which I actually indicated in my original post. People don't fold.
 
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paulsmall007

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Yea I find a lot more of hands go to showdown in limit, it's so cheap to get to showdown more often. Can't really overbet the river or make hard decisions and get into a lot of multi way pots because of that
 
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How much would you open up your range? It's very tough to make someone fold in limit, even firing 3 bullets. Also, how big of a factor is table image in limit? I don't think I would be too concerned, only with the fact of how tight/loose one player is playing, that's about it..

Because it's limit your value betting lighter and your bluffs don't have to work as often
 
cally

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How do you guys play mid pairs, (6's, 7's, 8's) in early pos.? Raise the pot? Just limp & hope to catch a wicked flop?
 
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the0

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NL is very remunerative and lucrative I find. Limit poker often sees bluffs being called down more often.
 
Dorugremon

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Which brings me here, now I will be going to a limit table which is a bit of change. I am looking forward to a softer field even if the profits do not come as fast, because I am more concerned with upping my game and being profitable over a period of time.

Don't count on it. You can find really good players at fixed limit too.

I created this thread in hopes to receive advice on playing limit poker (Micro 2/5, 5/10 to start, then will probably play 10/20 regularly). A sound piece of advice a peer gave to me was to watch the bluffs, they do not catch like they do in NL. So now I look for your guys tips and opinions to be able to crush the micro Limit. Thank you guys for reading & looking forward to hearing your contributions!
The A Number One difference between no-limit and fixed-limit is that, in no-limit, you're looking for a made hand that can play for stacks. You're not often playing for stacks at fixed-limit.

What you want for fixed-limit are hands that have staying power. Preflop, you don't have the fold equity (either actual or implied) since all your players know just how much it'll cost them to enter a pot. Expect to get called, and by more players, pre. Since you're going multi-way to the flop, you want hands that can play well against multiple hands: big straight draws, big flush draws. This means big cards most of the time. Medium and small connectors can be played only from late positions, and then if they don't cost more than a single bet. Even if you flop big, your ability to capitalize is, well, limited at FL.

This makes some hands better for fixed limit: something like Ad,6d is very playable at FL. If you flop a flush draw, you're often getting the odds to call, and there's nothing your opponents can do about it to deny you odds.

Other very playable hands are TPTK, TPGK and overpairs. You'll get them often, and these are almost always through tickets to the river, and should be played fast. They'll win you a lot of bets, but don't cost you very much when they get beat. Hands like this need to be played cautiously at NL when deep stacked.

Sub nut flush draws also become more valuable, and for the same reason: they can win a lot of chips, but don't cost you your entire stack when they don't. It's worth pursuing these draws if you're getting a good price. You avoid these hands at no-limit as they can cost you your entire stack.

Your aim at no-limit is to get stacks in. At FL, it's maximizing the number of bets you win. Sometimes it's correct to smooth call instead of raising to keep players in even though this increases the chances of a suck-out. Look for opportunities to get in more than one bet. That could mean a c/r instead of leading out for a call to collect two bets instead of one. It depends on whether you believe there will be a bet if you check, and where you expect that bet to come from.

As for bluffing, the rewards are greater, but so is the incentive to the caller to look you up. Double and triple barrelling isn't going to work as frequently, and should be done only against players known to be timid. Also, don't expect c-bets to work as often, so don't make automatic c-bets: they can cost you a lot of bets.

The biggest mistake FL players make at NL is overplaying TPTK/overpairs and getting stacked. The biggest mistake NL players make at FL is folding too easily. If you have (7c,7s) and the flop is: (Kd, 7d, 2d) you have a through ticket to the river, even if the pot's jammed when it gets to you. Here, a NL player just might fold, thinking someone's got a flush. He's probably right about that, but wrong to not chase with his 10-out hand. Even if he doesn't bink a Full, he should still call a river bet. Yes, it'll lose often, but that's not the disaster that folding the best is. It's just one more bet and the pot contains many bets: you don't have to be right all that often. Calling here can never be more than a minor mathematical error, and for table image, may not even be an error.

"How do you guys play mid pairs, (6's, 7's, 8's) in early pos.? Raise the pot? Just limp & hope to catch a wicked flop?"

It depends. I'd raise it if I had a good reason to believe that the raise would significantly cut down the field. That means a passive, weak/tight type of game. You can open limp if your opponents are the type to trail in, but unlikely to raise behind you. See a cheap flop and see if you bink. If you do, and you have a lot of opponents still in, that's very good indeed. The other place to call is FL games with unusually small ante/blind structures.
 
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Aces2w1n

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i dont think i could ever fold in limit lol not that ive played it
 
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Limit is a different animal. I usually call the bb with almost any 2 cards because anything can happen once the flop comes. If it's raised maximum preflop, it's hard for me stay in unless I've actually got a playable hand. In the low levels, as has been said before, you can't get anyone to fold, they will call to the end with a mere pair of 2's because it's fairly cheap. Get your feet wet on the low levels and once you feel comfortable/confident, move up to the higher levels, gets too expensive to call without good cards. GOOD LUCK!!!!

Debby
 
BogdanStark

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Too much show downs you will get at this game. What is that mean? You should have the best hand in this case, but completely hard to do it. You will pay much more money like NL, thinking that your hand really better then opponent.
 
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pOKeRpEnGuIN

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Limit or not?

Ive played limit before and i find its a big money waster
 
cally

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Don't count on it. You can find really good players at fixed limit too.

The A Number One difference between no-limit and fixed-limit is that, in no-limit, you're looking for a made hand that can play for stacks. You're not often playing for stacks at fixed-limit.

What you want for fixed-limit are hands that have staying power. Preflop, you don't have the fold equity (either actual or implied) since all your players know just how much it'll cost them to enter a pot. Expect to get called, and by more players, pre. Since you're going multi-way to the flop, you want hands that can play well against multiple hands: big straight draws, big flush draws. This means big cards most of the time. Medium and small connectors can be played only from late positions, and then if they don't cost more than a single bet. Even if you flop big, your ability to capitalize is, well, limited at FL.

This makes some hands better for fixed limit: something like Ad,6d is very playable at FL. If you flop a flush draw, you're often getting the odds to call, and there's nothing your opponents can do about it to deny you odds.

Other very playable hands are TPTK, TPGK and overpairs. You'll get them often, and these are almost always through tickets to the river, and should be played fast. They'll win you a lot of bets, but don't cost you very much when they get beat. Hands like this need to be played cautiously at NL when deep stacked.

Sub nut flush draws also become more valuable, and for the same reason: they can win a lot of chips, but don't cost you your entire stack when they don't. It's worth pursuing these draws if you're getting a good price. You avoid these hands at no-limit as they can cost you your entire stack.

Your aim at no-limit is to get stacks in. At FL, it's maximizing the number of bets you win. Sometimes it's correct to smooth call instead of raising to keep players in even though this increases the chances of a suck-out. Look for opportunities to get in more than one bet. That could mean a c/r instead of leading out for a call to collect two bets instead of one. It depends on whether you believe there will be a bet if you check, and where you expect that bet to come from.

As for bluffing, the rewards are greater, but so is the incentive to the caller to look you up. Double and triple barrelling isn't going to work as frequently, and should be done only against players known to be timid. Also, don't expect c-bets to work as often, so don't make automatic c-bets: they can cost you a lot of bets.

The biggest mistake FL players make at NL is overplaying TPTK/overpairs and getting stacked. The biggest mistake NL players make at FL is folding too easily. If you have (7c,7s) and the flop is: (Kd, 7d, 2d) you have a through ticket to the river, even if the pot's jammed when it gets to you. Here, a NL player just might fold, thinking someone's got a flush. He's probably right about that, but wrong to not chase with his 10-out hand. Even if he doesn't bink a Full, he should still call a river bet. Yes, it'll lose often, but that's not the disaster that folding the best is. It's just one more bet and the pot contains many bets: you don't have to be right all that often. Calling here can never be more than a minor mathematical error, and for table image, may not even be an error.

"How do you guys play mid pairs, (6's, 7's, 8's) in early pos.? Raise the pot? Just limp & hope to catch a wicked flop?"

It depends. I'd raise it if I had a good reason to believe that the raise would significantly cut down the field. That means a passive, weak/tight type of game. You can open limp if your opponents are the type to trail in, but unlikely to raise behind you. See a cheap flop and see if you bink. If you do, and you have a lot of opponents still in, that's very good indeed. The other place to call is FL games with unusually small ante/blind structures.

I appreciate this quality post. Thank you. I understand that good players sit at fixed limit as well, but I know to avoid these players in big showdowns at the table unless I'm holding the absolute nuts, I've seen some crazy stuff happen ahaha.

Back to the post however, I appreciate all the information you have laid out for me and I will use this to my advantage. Appreciate the in-depth and analysis of playing the mid pairs as well, this is a hand that can ruin bankrolls if not played properly. I am hoping my next time at the casino the cards are in my favour and I can make plays, I wish I could go more often its quite a fun table!
 
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Don't play much limit but some good info here
 
Syltan

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I tried to play limited poker but I need room to bluff in this game it is not, I have only one advice is not to bluff!))
 
cally

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Limit is a different animal. I usually call the bb with almost any 2 cards because anything can happen once the flop comes. If it's raised maximum preflop, it's hard for me stay in unless I've actually got a playable hand. In the low levels, as has been said before, you can't get anyone to fold, they will call to the end with a mere pair of 2's because it's fairly cheap. Get your feet wet on the low levels and once you feel comfortable/confident, move up to the higher levels, gets too expensive to call without good cards. GOOD LUCK!!!!

Debby

Another solid piece of advice. Truly appreciate the contribution, I am quite enjoying the way this thread is going... Lots of tips for newbies (like myself) to start crushing the limit tables... Hopefully we all run good. I probably wont move up to 5/10, 10/20 until I build my bankroll + more from lower tables... If it is taking a while to see true profit I may move up regardless as I am studying hard to make sure I am one step ahead of the regs!
 
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I didn't understand whether you (OP) talking about live or online games. Live games could be still weak in some casinos. But if you intend to play online games, keep in mind that almost all what's written here is wrong.
Limit holdem needs much more bluffing than no limit. You have to bluff, not for profit, but to survive. If you bluff too rarely, you'll be eaten alive. (And I'm not talking about $10/$20, I'm talking about all limits starting with $1/$2)
You're going to be called, they say. Yes, you will be called, but you have to bluff anyway. You'll have significant loses (by bluffing unsuccessfully), but it's necessary. Consider that as paying a tax, if it makes things easier... :D

P.S. In $10/$20 games, you have less showdowns than in strong NL game...
 
cally

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I didn't understand whether you (OP) talking about live or online games. Live games could be still weak in some casinos. But if you intend to play online games, keep in mind that almost all what's written here is wrong.
Limit holdem needs much more bluffing than no limit. You have to bluff, not for profit, but to survive. If you bluff too rarely, you'll be eaten alive. (And I'm not talking about $10/$20, I'm talking about all limits starting with $1/$2)
You're going to be called, they say. Yes, you will be called, but you have to bluff anyway. You'll have significant loses (by bluffing unsuccessfully), but it's necessary. Consider that as paying a tax, if it makes things easier... :D

P.S. In $10/$20 games, you have less showdowns than in strong NL game...

This was specifically meant for live play. IS there a lot of action on Limit cash games and tourneys online?
 
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the0

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There seem seems to be minimal activity online for limit.
 
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Prolaznik

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This was specifically meant for live play. IS there a lot of action on Limit cash games and tourneys online?
There is only one chance that you can play LHE online:
IF you're interested only for practice and pretty indifferent to winnings or loses. In that case, you can play whatever limit you find - sometimes 1c/2c, sometimes $0.25/$0.50, sometimes $3/$6... Sometimes you'll find NOTHING!
Yes, even if you're willing to play any limit, you'll frequently be disgusted by the fact that NOBODY plays, at all...
 
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marcumx

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i tried limit at the casino cause i was crushing it on bovada. the pots were always pretty massive b/c ppl simply would not fold. sitting down with 100 i was out in half an hour although i played mostly premiums and would hit the flop, i was always getting outdrawn by garbage
 
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