Leading in hand? extracting most value

magicius

magicius

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Total posts
1,822
Chips
0
Ok guys,something bothers me about my play...

let me give example player A raise 3bb,player 3bet to 9BB,we see our cards and we have lets say QQ... so first thing is would we want to 4bet here? or flat call?

now sometimes when i 4bet they let go their hand,but lets say we did flatcall..

flop comes 10 Q 5 all rainbow... now should we take a lead and raise or check and just call what ever they raise?

i think i have problem with extracting value in hands..

i appreciate any feedback on this...
 
akaRobbo

akaRobbo

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Total posts
656
Chips
0
Always flat the 3-bet with QQ. If the player is 3betting light we can trap, or if the player is extremely tight and only 3bets with with premiums we can set mine and float to stack him if we get lucky.

Slow play that flop.
 
U

Ubercroz

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Total posts
653
Chips
0
This really depends on the opponents you are facing.

But, if I was going to make a broad sweeping statement it would be to bet. Betting is typically the best way for you to get money into the pot.

Consider this: If you bet what hands will call? Well, TT, KK, AA will all call a bet. an AK might call a single bet, and JJ might as well. Other hands, like 77 or 88 could make a call here, but are likely just going to fold.

Now, the hands that are likely to fold (77-99, JJ, AK) are also not likely to improve on the turn or river. So they will likely not call a bet on the turn any more than they would on the flop (with the possible exception of JJ, who might think he is best if you check the flop). So the only hand you are likely to get more money off of by checking is potentially JJ. Everything else either calls or folds.

So, betting here is the best answer. The people who fold will fold anyway, the people who call will call anyway. You don't really have a chance to play tricky since it is a 3bet pot.
 
akaRobbo

akaRobbo

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Total posts
656
Chips
0
This really depends on the opponents you are facing.

But, if I was going to make a broad sweeping statement it would be to bet. Betting is typically the best way for you to get money into the pot.

Consider this: If you bet what hands will call? Well, TT, KK, AA will all call a bet. an AK might call a single bet, and JJ might as well. Other hands, like 77 or 88 could make a call here, but are likely just going to fold.

Now, the hands that are likely to fold (77-99, JJ, AK) are also not likely to improve on the turn or river. So they will likely not call a bet on the turn any more than they would on the flop (with the possible exception of JJ, who might think he is best if you check the flop). So the only hand you are likely to get more money off of by checking is potentially JJ. Everything else either calls or folds.

So, betting here is the best answer. The people who fold will fold anyway, the people who call will call anyway. You don't really have a chance to play tricky since it is a 3bet pot.

Hmm good points. But if the type of player holding AK, JJ, TT, 77-99 would call a bet on the flop, wouldn't they take a stab at the pot on turn if we checked behind the flop? What if they improved? Then they definitely would, and maybe even believe we don't have a Q if nothing did end up helping them. Betting that flop is going to force a lot of folds IMO. We want to under rep top set.
 
U

Ubercroz

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Total posts
653
Chips
0
Hmm good points. But if the type of player holding AK, JJ, TT, 77-99 would call a bet on the flop, wouldn't they take a stab at the pot on turn if we checked behind the flop? What if they improved? Then they definitely would, and maybe even believe we don't have a Q if nothing did end up helping them. Betting that flop is going to force a lot of folds IMO. We want to under rep top set.

If someone calls the flop bet with AK and hits an A they are going to pay us off anyway. So if we check the flop, then we are losing value. If they would call before they improve then great. We want to extract the maximum value from a hand.

If they happen to have one of those hands that will call pretty much regardless (AQ, KK, AA, TT) then we want make them pay us.

Hoping that someone might improve so that they will maybe pay us off isn't a good reason to check a 3bet pot on the flop.

There are enough combinations of hands that will call that bet that you are losing money by not betting.

bet and realize future gains.
 
H

hffjd2000

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 6, 2014
Total posts
2,329
Chips
0
Let him lead since he indicated aggressiveness.

You can either cc or cr depending on your read about him.
 
magicius

magicius

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Total posts
1,822
Chips
0
good good,i was asking general,should you bet or let aggressor bet and just call it... usually when that happens to me and they check river if i bet they fold 90% of time
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2005
Total posts
3,167
Chips
0
We want to under rep top set.
Since when does betting narrow your range to just top set? When you bet, he'll put you on some range. How wide it is will depend, but it's safe to assume it will be wider. You merely happen to have the top of whatever range he assigns to you.
 
suby_rafael

suby_rafael

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 24, 2014
Total posts
1,039
Chips
0
bet

A raise 3bb,player 3bet to 9BB,we see our cards and we have lets say QQ... so first thing is would we want to 4bet here? or flat call?

I think it's a marginal call. 4betting is alright here so is flatting. I think if the 3better is generally aggro then 4bet or else i would prefer a flat call.

After the flop we have to bet here if checked to us. And if someone had bet already then raise to extract value.:tongue:
 
W

Weisssound

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 4, 2013
Total posts
272
Chips
0
This can be a fairly easy decision with a little insight. First - everything hinges on your villain's 3 bet range.

At lower stakes in particular people tend to 3 bet cards like 44-TT, in addition to JJ-AA. They also 3 bet AJ-AK. This is because they aren't comfortable playing post flop with hands like AJ and would rather see a fold before the cards are laid out. There's a good portion of this range that QQ crushes. Even if the player who raised first is on the tighter side, you can leverage the 4 bet here because the initial raiser will have to consider the villain shoving behind him. Two folds for the price of one. Unless the villain does shove, in which case, you have to make a decision...

The table matters a lot too. If the table is tight, 3 betting with position is often a sign that the hole cards are NOT AA/KK. People with hands this strong generally want people in, not scare people out. So look out for flats to a big early raise, or min-raise 3 betting. On a loose table with hitch hikers, people are more likely to 3 bet in position to shake off the tag alongs (or catch a loose caller for value).


Then you've got people who are 3 betting tight. JJ-AA, AK/AQsuited. You have value against this range. So you're basically set mining with a touch extra equity. So you're basically looking for info unless you happen to hit your set.

If the player calls - you either have A) A calling station, or (B) someone with a preme hand. If you hit your set on the flop you can effectively check to either person. (A) will make a bet with about half their range, (B) will make a bet with pretty much all of their range. (A) you can sometimes check-shove and get a call from AA/KK, or even AQ. If they don't have that stuff, a check-call will shut them down anyway. So I like the check-raise for scenario (A). (B) I like a check-call. They're looking for information, check-raising gives it to them. However, a check-call looks like you hit the Queen (puts your perceived range to AA, KK, AQ,KQ, QQ, QJ suited on the loose side). AA and KK are beating a lot of that range! You'll probably see more value down the line. JJ, AK will probably shut down, AQ will fold under pressure. TT, you'll likely see a lot of value!

I like leading out on the turn. It looks less strong than flatting to a 3bet, check-calling the flop, check-calling the turn. To me, that signals AA, KK, or QQ in your hand. By leading out I feel that's a stronger indicator that you have AQ or KQ. If someone with Aces feels you paired your Queen they might look to get value.

Another prospect on the turn I actually like the min-raise donk lead. It is a bit of a flag for a more experienced player, but it can also look like a protection bet. A more experienced player will often raise here to see if you are protecting or if you have a made hand. Experienced players are looking for a show down with AA/KK if they think something sneaky is happening, so this is your last point of value for a good player generally. A less experienced player will usually elect a call, which means you should be able to lead for value on the river (a little more than half pot is usually about right) and get called. It's hard to let go of top pair to a value bet on the river even for an experienced player, even if there's that nagging feeling that they're beat...


The most value is always going to come from the loose-aggs though. They live for AA. They design their image around getting all their chips in with Aces. At least at the lower stakes. All you have to do is show them the slightest sign of weakness or hesitance and they will be rushing into the pot faster than you can figure how to get value. This ideal though, you'll generally run into this if you have something like 55 pre-flop where you're putting them on AA/KK and flatting for a set.
 
P

pallav_pro

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Mar 30, 2014
Total posts
9
Chips
0
4-betting pre-flop is a good option as there is always a 30% chance with AJ being crushing you and almost 45% chance that AK crushes postflop. So getting your chips in at these ratio are a good choice in the long run
After postflop , always bet according to your opponents but a check on the flop can be very beneficiary as it may make your opponent think that you have also not hit the flop and believing that he has the best hand in these situations with AK and JJ . He might commit all his chips in these situations but if no action comes on the flop then, you should bet on the turn to extract value of your hand.
 
el_magiciann

el_magiciann

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 8, 2013
Total posts
1,971
Chips
0
Let the aggresor bet, if we hit our set i dont see a problem to slow play it and maybe with this play we get more value from our hand!
 
J

jackflash

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 9, 2014
Total posts
42
Chips
0
This can be a fairly easy decision with a little insight. First - everything hinges on your villain's 3 bet range.

At lower stakes in particular people tend to 3 bet cards like 44-TT, in addition to JJ-AA. They also 3 bet AJ-AK. This is because they aren't comfortable playing post flop with hands like AJ and would rather see a fold before the cards are laid out. There's a good portion of this range that QQ crushes. Even if the player who raised first is on the tighter side, you can leverage the 4 bet here because the initial raiser will have to consider the villain shoving behind him. Two folds for the price of one. Unless the villain does shove, in which case, you have to make a decision...

The table matters a lot too. If the table is tight, 3 betting with position is often a sign that the hole cards are NOT AA/KK. People with hands this strong generally want people in, not scare people out. So look out for flats to a big early raise, or min-raise 3 betting. On a loose table with hitch hikers, people are more likely to 3 bet in position to shake off the tag alongs (or catch a loose caller for value).


Then you've got people who are 3 betting tight. JJ-AA, AK/AQsuited. You have value against this range. So you're basically set mining with a touch extra equity. So you're basically looking for info unless you happen to hit your set.

If the player calls - you either have A) A calling station, or (B) someone with a preme hand. If you hit your set on the flop you can effectively check to either person. (A) will make a bet with about half their range, (B) will make a bet with pretty much all of their range. (A) you can sometimes check-shove and get a call from AA/KK, or even AQ. If they don't have that stuff, a check-call will shut them down anyway. So I like the check-raise for scenario (A). (B) I like a check-call. They're looking for information, check-raising gives it to them. However, a check-call looks like you hit the Queen (puts your perceived range to AA, KK, AQ,KQ, QQ, QJ suited on the loose side). AA and KK are beating a lot of that range! You'll probably see more value down the line. JJ, AK will probably shut down, AQ will fold under pressure. TT, you'll likely see a lot of value!

I like leading out on the turn. It looks less strong than flatting to a 3bet, check-calling the flop, check-calling the turn. To me, that signals AA, KK, or QQ in your hand. By leading out I feel that's a stronger indicator that you have AQ or KQ. If someone with Aces feels you paired your Queen they might look to get value.

Another prospect on the turn I actually like the min-raise donk lead. It is a bit of a flag for a more experienced player, but it can also look like a protection bet. A more experienced player will often raise here to see if you are protecting or if you have a made hand. Experienced players are looking for a show down with AA/KK if they think something sneaky is happening, so this is your last point of value for a good player generally. A less experienced player will usually elect a call, which means you should be able to lead for value on the river (a little more than half pot is usually about right) and get called. It's hard to let go of top pair to a value bet on the river even for an experienced player, even if there's that nagging feeling that they're beat...


The most value is always going to come from the loose-aggs though. They live for AA. They design their image around getting all their chips in with Aces. At least at the lower stakes. All you have to do is show them the slightest sign of weakness or hesitance and they will be rushing into the pot faster than you can figure how to get value. This ideal though, you'll generally run into this if you have something like 55 pre-flop where you're putting them on AA/KK and flatting for a set.

i really enjoyed reading that,great post ,it was like reading a well written professional article, id like to read more posts like this , thanks mate
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 13, 2005
Total posts
4,298
Awards
1
Chips
17
Ok guys,something bothers me about my play...

let me give example player A raise 3bb,player 3bet to 9BB,we see our cards and we have lets say QQ... so first thing is would we want to 4bet here? or flat call?

now sometimes when i 4bet they let go their hand,but lets say we did flatcall..

flop comes 10 Q 5 all rainbow... now should we take a lead and raise or check and just call what ever they raise?

i think i have problem with extracting value in hands..

i appreciate any feedback on this...

Slow play that flop.

And the correct answer is..... Open shove all-in. Why? Under normal circumstances, when you flat a three bet pot with QQ the best you can hope for is that someone is raising with AK but you're really worried that they might actually have AA or KK, or else you'd 4 bet, right? So you bingo the QT5 flop; why in the world would you ever slow play this? AK will probably check back which would be a disaster. AA or KK would probably bet but would get spooked by a check raise. But what neither of those two hands will ever do is fold to a donk shove. NEVER! Occasionally you might scare off a few hands like AK or JJ that probably wouldn't have paid off much anyway.
 
S

Swickster007

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 13, 2014
Total posts
175
Chips
0
I often try to slowplay the high set...but it doesn't always work out in your favor. If the player is holding AJ and a K comes during this slowplay, you're pretty ****ed. My style of slow playing is force the guy to ''pay'' to see the next card. Keeps me from getting burned. I'd rather have a for sure pot than risk it for more....but of coarse it always depends on what cards are showing.
 
magicius

magicius

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Total posts
1,822
Chips
0
And the correct answer is..... Open shove all-in. Why? Under normal circumstances, when you flat a three bet pot with QQ the best you can hope for is that someone is raising with AK but you're really worried that they might actually have AA or KK, or else you'd 4 bet, right? So you bingo the QT5 flop; why in the world would you ever slow play this? AK will probably check back which would be a disaster. AA or KK would probably bet but would get spooked by a check raise. But what neither of those two hands will ever do is fold to a donk shove. NEVER! Occasionally you might scare off a few hands like AK or JJ that probably wouldn't have paid off much anyway.

This seems good,since we can extract all the moneyz from premium holders,if they dont improve...

Sent from my HTC Desire X using Tapatalk
 
T

thatgreekdude

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Total posts
1,024
Awards
1
Chips
1
if we flat villains 3bet we should always check to him as he was the pre-flop aggressor, by flatting and not 4betting we can't narrow down villains range so he could easily have AA or KK, just check it to him pay attention to his bet sizing, if he donks out for pot it's an overpair almost everytime and you can trap and smooth call, if he checks back flop and we lead out turn and he folds it's fine because we were never going to get heaps of value from the hand regardless.
 
Last edited:
W

Weisssound

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 4, 2013
Total posts
272
Chips
0
if we flat villains 3bet we should always check to him as he was the pre-flop aggressor, by flatting and not 4betting we can't narrow down villains range so he could easily have AA or KK, just check it to him pay attention to his bet sizing, if he donks out for pot it's an overpair almost everytime and you can trap and smooth call, if he checks back flop and we lead out turn and he folds it's fine because we were never going to get heaps of value from the hand regardless.

^This.
 
Starting Hands - Poker Hand Nicknames Rankings - Poker Hands
Top