LAG vs. TAG

Since I started in Carbon Poker and finally got the odds calculator software, it says I am Tight Aggressive Solid. But the way I look at it, it just tells me that i'm predictable and the fact I have net losses reinforces that fact IMO.

So I read another forum here where someone mentioned if you are a LAG player you will be able to transition to higher stakes poker easier than if you were a tight player.

Anyone have any thoughts as to what's a better strategy in the long term (assuming utilized correctly with correct position etc.) The hands that seem to pay out the best for me is when I raise preflop with low connected suiters or with pocket bottom pairs and I get a set or flush to trap a two pair/straight. So I don't know. Anyone got some thoughts on this? And a place to learn good LAG strategy.

First off, read this:

https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/a-nits-apology-why-tight-right-154124/

Before deciding you want to change styles.

Second, I don't think that becoming "LAG" is a goal, but rather, your goal should be to win more money. Playing more hands puts your in more marginal situations. Playing more hands aggressively puts you in marginal situations with bloated pots.

This takes a lot of skill to navigate. As your skill increases, you will generally learn naturally that there are spots where you can play profitably were you didn't before.

It depends on where you're playing. If you're playing 6-handed table or lower, such as heads-up, then yes, you need to play LAG or loosen up your range compared to typical 9-handed table. Tom Dwan mentioned that 9-handed table with no antes favor TAG players over LAG players, which is why he hates playing 9-handed table unless there are antes involved.

If you're playing 9-handed table with no antes, which is majority of microstakes-mid stakes, then TAG is fine.

The real question as baudib1 should be, "what makes me win more money?"

If you're playing microstakes, then you're not as predictable as you think you are. I played tight, make ridiculous raise with pocket Aces, and yet, people don't respect my raises and will reraise me all-in or give me action.

I play pretty much the smallest stakes games around but I've recently found myself transitioning to a more lagish style of play and it seems to be more profitable for me. I came to realise that by opening up my range and playing more pots with fish I gave them a lot more opportunities to make mistakes. The improvement was largely because I developed a much better post flop game and some factors really improved my winrate by a ton.

1. value betting way better than I used to. I now value bet a shit ton more and a lot more thinly than I used to. why worry about pot control when they will stack off bottom pair?

2. Reads. I've come to realise that most of the micro players are blatantly easy to read when it comes to bet sizing and timing tells in relation to the board texture and action.

3. Note taking. I play a lot on 888 which has a small player pool which means that you will quite often see the same regs over and over again, this allows me to gain a lot of information and even though these players are "regs" they are used to playing terrible players and play a style that works for them but is highly exploitable if like me you have info and are capable of adapting your play. Against these guys I end up exploiting them more than the fish in a lot of cases.

4. Just paying attention. I know you aren't meant to bluff at the micros, but if you just play attention you will find that you can pick up so much info on payer, a lot of them are even capable of folding allowing you to actually on occasion bluff if you do it correctly plus you can suddenly pick up when one player goes on tilt or is making mistakes in bet sizing/ always taking some weird line which you can punish if you notice.

4. Folding! This is so big, but somehow it's now become tremendously easy to fold hands that I used to either get too attached to or would only fold reluctantly. Overpairs are now easy for me to fold since the players make it obvious when I'm beat. two pair top pairs I can now fold these hands so much easier. I don't know how I know the difference but I seem to just always have a much better sense to know when to make huge folds but at the same time I'm also making a lot of (successful) hero calls. I think the difference is just experience.



I'm also now a huge fan of punishing limpers relentlessly and also 3 betting a pretty wide range. I've found that a lot of these players are making so many mistakes post flop that by taking the initiative in the hand in bloated pots I'm winning bigger pots when they make those mistakes which allows me to win more pots and even gets me payed off easier since if you play long enough people start to notice you play quite a lot of hands (but mostly just late position!) This even gets you payed off easier and occasionally gets people to blow up after getting fed up of you constantly raising their limps 3 betting them and just not letting them have any easy decisions, this is great if you can make a real hand when they do blow up.



Basically I've found I can outplay my opponents so I play with them more. I suspect it's just experience that has got me playing so much better now, plus a better mind set. This isn't to say that playing lag is better, especially at the micros, it's just my story that I felt compelled to share, everyone is different and what's good for me might not be good for you. Because the key point with this style is that you need to be sure you are making all the correct decisions post flop. I do come up against a lot more marginal spot and more high variance spots, but I've found I can handle these quite well.

thank you

thank you for all the input. I especially liked the nits apology thread, it gave me good insight and perspective. I've noticed that I have profited alot by being tight and I think my biggest problem has been playing while on Tilt. A really bad couple tilts cost me everything, and maybe it's never been my tight playing style that was a problem. Most days of this month I would be playing for over 8 hours, and for someone who is just getting into it again after a long time, I was probably playing in tilt for at least 4 of those hours. When I'm well rested hydrated and without distraction, my cash games and tournament play was amazing, but once I get full of myself and feel invincible I start making ridiculous mistakes.

Maybe playing tight is the style I should be focused on and just learn to battle my weaknesses and then once I have enough experience I'll be able to play consistently and not worry about Tight or Loose, just play what's required to defeat my opponents.

Anyways, Thanks again for the replies everyone!

Really hard to play well Laggy if you don't have enough postflop skills and experience. You're gonna need to have the selfcontrol to fold when you know the other persons got the goods.

I play live 1/2 NL almost exclusively, and I can also be viewed as somewhat of a "nit" to any observant player. Like you, I've contemplated whether or not I should loosen up my range and play more hands. Honestly, I've come to realize that both styles can be used successfully. Your inability to profit thus far probably has more to do with a lot of small leaks in your game rather than your overall playing style. Before you decide to "make a switch," consider a few things:

TIGHT

- Easier decisions postflop; you'll often be way ahead when you hit
- Long periods of being card dead and not seeing flops, but run-bads can be minimized
- Probably never going to be the guy with a giant castle of chips in front of him, but...
- Profit will be a slower, steadier climb with smaller downswings
- You must be prepared to pick off bluffs by players looking to exploit your narrow starting range

LOOSE

- Tougher decisions postflop; bigger pots with more marginal hands
- Must be able to make good borderline decisions; you'll be playing more hands, so you'll need to eat up every percentage point of profitability that you can
- Being card dead won't be much of an issue, but running bad can sting
- Profit may climb quicker but will include really steep downswings
- Great hand-reading skills a must; players will be looking to set more traps against you

In both styles, you must be able to make awesome folds and avoid tilt.

Playing style also has a lot to do with an individual's personality. Find out which style suits you and start to fine tune it.

It is also important to note that your playing style must be somewhat flexible. Dynamics will be different from table to table, so you must be able to loosen up or tighten up depending on what is happening. I'm not saying you should suddenly shift to a super LAG style because a table is a bit nitty or become a rock because players are loose, but you have to bend a little.

I hope this was helpful. Good luck!

i don't make ANY awesome folds and i crush 1/2 live playing super LAG.

baudib1 said:

i don't make ANY awesome folds and i crush 1/2 live playing super LAG.

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So you just pay off when you know you are second best? Not sure that's profitable, man.

No that's not it at all. I just don't make exploitable folds. In the past two years there's been maybe one -- KK preflop deepstacked vs. a cold 4-bet.

baudib1 said:

No that's not it at all. I just don't make exploitable folds. In the past two years there's been maybe one -- KK preflop deepstacked vs. a cold 4-bet.

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I said awesome folds, not exploitable folds. Mostly postflop folds.

I'm not talking about folding the second nuts every time because someone is being aggressive. I'm referring to folding a big hand because you know the fish across from you just hit his 4-outer.

Folds against bad players when they just drew out on you with trash.

I usually play opposite the general aggression level of the table. If you don't switch gears they will have you pegged.

Mr Sandbag said:

I said awesome folds, not exploitable folds. Mostly postflop folds.

I'm not talking about folding the second nuts every time because someone is being aggressive. I'm referring to folding a big hand because you know the fish across from you just hit his 4-outer.

Folds against bad players when they just drew out on you with trash.

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Bet-folding vs. fish is the most standard line ever and nothing remotely resembling awesome, and it has nothing to do with LAG play.

baudib1 said:

Bet-folding vs. fish is the most standard line ever and nothing remotely resembling awesome, and it has nothing to do with LAG play.

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Standard for who? You? Winning players? No kidding. OP said himself he's not a winning player yet, which suggest big leaks in his game. One of the hardest things for a learning player is getting accustomed to folding big hands at the right times. So while it may not feel awesome to you, getting a hang of it can be really great for someone who isn't used to doing it. Believe it or not, not everyone on this forum is a bracelet winner.

The best place to learn LAG strategy is from strategy videos posted by LAG players. LAG players do transfer better into higher stakes because in higher stakes there are more players who actually pay enough attention to take advantage of weak plays. TAG is extremely weak because it just takes a little floating to create fear in the player, so all you ever have to do is make sure you have position on the TAG player any time they are in a hand. LAG gets you paid off more often because the other players know you are betting and raising a lot. Which means that it turns betting into trapping and causes players to raise you more often when you have a good hand. However, the key to LAG is observation and intuition. You have to have a much better feel for each player you go up against because otherwise, you will bet into monsters and overcall in bad spots. And as it's said, it's far better to make a bad fold than a bad call. So if you feel you are observant, intelligent, and intuitive, start practicing at middle stakes (since LAG is pretty ineffective at micro) and use a pokertracker to see what your leaks are. What sort of things are you overcalling on, what are you overplaying, etc. Hope this helps.

Mr Sandbag said:

Standard for who? You? Winning players? No kidding. OP said himself he's not a winning player yet, which suggest big leaks in his game. One of the hardest things for a learning player is getting accustomed to folding big hands at the right times. So while it may not feel awesome to you, getting a hang of it can be really great for someone who isn't used to doing it. Believe it or not, not everyone on this forum is a bracelet winner.

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I'm not a bracelet winner, I make money off terrible 1/2 players. That's it. There's nothing special about that. Bet-folding good hands (i.e. folding to fish when they have it) is the bread and butter of anyone who aspires to beat 5NL or better.

Mr Sandbag said:

TIGHT

- Easier decisions postflop; you'll often be way ahead when you hit
- Long periods of being card dead and not seeing flops, but run-bads can be minimized
- Probably never going to be the guy with a giant castle of chips in front of him, but...
- Profit will be a slower, steadier climb with smaller downswings
- You must be prepared to pick off bluffs by players looking to exploit your narrow starting range

LOOSE

- Tougher decisions postflop; bigger pots with more marginal hands
- Must be able to make good borderline decisions; you'll be playing more hands, so you'll need to eat up every percentage point of profitability that you can
- Being card dead won't be much of an issue, but running bad can sting
- Profit may climb quicker but will include really steep downswings
- Great hand-reading skills a must; players will be looking to set more traps against you

In both styles, you must be able to make awesome folds and avoid tilt.


I hope this was helpful. Good luck!

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In tournament play I'll play both styles, depending on the situation obviously. For instance early stages i'll keep it tight so that when some random goes all in i'll only call with a big hand (only if I can tell he's just trying to double up before registration ends) and that gets me to the final table a good amount of the time. And once I get to be heads up i'll switch to a more looser range of hands just because my Ax Kx is now much more likely to take the pot.

But when you mention awesome folds, I usually fail at that big enough times to be a loosing player. When i'm on tilt (leak in itself) I just think everyones bluffing and that's probably my biggest leak and I either reraise to much or call when I should fold.

When you mention playing style relies on what is more your personality or more comfortable to play with, I enjoy mixing it up just enough to trick my opponents. For instance when I was in the only tournament I won so far against 380+ I played tight through all of it to the final table, so I already had a persona as a tight player and my bluffs had more weight on them when high suited cards were on the table. Then when I was heads up my opponent and I were both playing standard position raises and folding out of position. And I made a point to call every now and then in good position and fold when he raised me in case I ever got a monster I could exploit it. So the winning hand where I took his stack ended up being i had AA on the button and called the BB, he shoved all in, easiest call I made all day.

Are most LAG players playing in heads-up poker at the higher stakes? or are they in 6/9 ring tables as well?

skysurfer3 said:

. Are most LAG players playing in heads-up poker at the higher stakes? or are they in 6/9 ring tables as well?

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I don't really know how high you mean but in cash play the range narrows considerably in terms of the gap between the tighter players and the looser ones (speaking exclusively in regard to players who are beating the limit). In the smallest stakes games you can probably win with a vpip of 100. In any case the single greatest factor will be the number of players dealt into the hand as opposed to anyone's specific "style" of play.