KK OOP in a 4bet pot, heads up, A falls - optimal line?

LD1977

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Title says all but just to recap - I have KK, get 3bet from BTN, I 4bet and he flats.

Pot is 52bb and we are both 100bb deep (around 75bb left behind).

Flop is A43r, what is my best line here?

His stats are 21 / 9 / 4.4% 3bet over 1.1k hands, postflop AF 1.7 but in 3bet pots people change behavior. He never faced a 4bet before this hand so I have no idea what he flats with. Default play is needed.
 
Jblocher1

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I'm probably bet folding flop. U will find out real fast what he has. I bet probably like 1/2 pot fold to a reraise. That's just me though.
 
LD1977

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Well I did bet and he flatted again (pot 104bb, 48bb behind for both).

Then I checked and he shoved the rest and I called since it was less than half pot and he can do that with his entire 3bet range profitably if I fold.

I just hate this situation since this guy probably flats with his entire 3bet range.
 
Mr Sandbag

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What were the preflop bet amounts?
 
PrayForSpades

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Well I did bet and he flatted again (pot 104bb, 48bb behind for both).

Then I checked and he shoved the rest and I called since it was less than half pot and he can do that with his entire 3bet range profitably if I fold.

I just hate this situation since this guy probably flats with his entire 3bet range.


Correct play IMO, what did he have?
 
Blobweird123

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him flatting pre looks like JJ/QQ and some AK. So standard spot to bet/fold, turn im check folding though. Not many people are gonna get carried away with JJ/QQ in 4bet pots here with an A on the flop.
 
LD1977

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Preflop 4bet was around 25bb which is standard, you can see by the pot size.

He had AK and won.

I am thinking check call flop and check fold turn is maybe better?
 
starting_at_the_bottom

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Never check call flop here. You have not said what stake you are playing, but a lot of micro players will check back their pairs and bet their big aces. You will be more +ve betting out yourself.

You were the most aggro pre flop.

Bet fold about half pot.
 
RodneyC86

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bet/fold flop

check/fold turn

do you really think he will try and turn anything that you beat into a bluff here?
 
LD1977

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All of them in single raised pots when sitting IP call cbets with basically ATC and hope to take the pot on the turn. I call them autobettors and they are great when I have a hand.

This is a 3bet pot so it might be a bit different... but how do I know for sure with no reads? I would surely bet turn in his place if I called the flop to begin with. He needs me to fold 33% of the time, it is profitable to bet the turn.
 
Blobweird123

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All of them in single raised pots when sitting IP call cbets with basically ATC and hope to take the pot on the turn. I call them autobettors and they are great when I have a hand.

This is a 3bet pot so it might be a bit different... but how do I know for sure with no reads? I would surely bet turn in his place if I called the flop to begin with. He needs me to fold 33% of the time, it is profitable to bet the turn.

3bet pots have a totally different dynamic. Much more polarized. With that said you ask how you know for sure? You don't. And that's why its a check fold. You need to be right 33% of the time and honestly I doubt you are here. He is a super passive player. Hes just not calling here anywhere near often enough with weaker hands.
 
vinylspiros

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Bet 50% on flop and then fold to any further action is default for me in this situation.
 
R

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Like the others were saying c-bet/fold turn only check/fold.
One of those cases where we should fold.
You played very well but did not hit the board is a bit annoying especially we do not have positions its more difficult to make a decision
 
starting_at_the_bottom

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Edit, just to make a related comment.

Unless the people at your poker room are total numpties this is a good example of why we should either

1) Vary the amount we bet if we hit
or
2) bet the same amount whether we hit or miss

I mean, if you always bet pot when you connect and half pot when you miss, a thinking player will start to notice this.
 
LD1977

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This makes no sense. We should do either "A" or "not A" with "A" being action taken? :D
 
Karozi615

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your turn call was a terrible mistake. While I never condone "probe bets" because I think they generally don't work that well, this is a great spot to bet about 55% of the pot just to see what your opponent does. Your only other option is to check-raise substantially, but this is a bad choice. If you want to be really tricky you could check min-raise, indicating you flopped a set and your attempting to extract value. But if you take that line, you have to be prepared to shove the turn if you get flatted, and the other conditions are that your opponent have to be conservative enough, and more importantly DEEP enough, to make the fold profitable for them.

Basically you sometimes just have to fold kings when an overcard comes. It is honestly a situational thing, the fact that you saw a flop indicates that your opponent has two big cards and is drawing. If you both had made hands, or your opponent had queens, the money might have gone in preflop, at the very least you would have heard about it.
 
Karozi615

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Also if you could provide more info on the hand that would be ideal
 
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