My KK All in experience.

Gohaku94

Gohaku94

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Hi, I am looking to improve my plays with different types of hands based on experience, stats and others opinion about how a hand or a range of hands should be played. I wanna start with KK since this is a hand that makes me question how i should play it every time i get it.
Over a sample of 35k hands I went with KK all in preflop a total of 7 times (not alot i know, i called an all in or someone called my all in). I lost 5 of them and won 2. Now i'm not making this to show that i am unlucky or something but I've looked over all 7 hands and what i've seen is that when that player I was against had a full stack (100bb or more) 4 times of those he had AA and when the player had less than 100bb one time he had AK one time QQ and one time 55 (I've lost vs AK too). So after 35k hand and 7hands all in with KK preflop i have a whooping -$7.77 since i won vs stacks like 30-50bb and lost vs 100bb+.

I don't know at what sample size i should look to see something cause it's hard to get a massive sample size with how money times i got Ks all in preflop but all i can say is that if the player is decent and playing with 100bb+ at 2NL he might shove KK+. What do you guys think about this?
 
8bod8

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There is some information missing, my best guess is that you are playing tournaments, as heads up 4 out of 7 KK versus AA is not realistic statistically.
Basically you are describing 'proof' of the rule: never put more than 50% of your stack in one hand.
 
Gohaku94

Gohaku94

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Actually I am playing cash games and in 35k hands i got KK all in preflop vs an opponent 7 times. Might seem low but yes I am playing them aggresive, always raising KK and in those 7 times 4 times was vs AA when someone else decided to go all in vs my Ks. Maybe i'm unlucky and in 35k hands should manage to get Ks all in preflop more than 7 times but that's pretty much it. If someone has more infos about this i'd be really curious about the stats.
 
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Ivan Andreyev

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Fold KK on preflop

Hi, in 'The Microstakes Playbook' by Nathan Williams, who was one of the best microlimit player ever, I read that he can fold KK on preflop against some type of opponents. This of course some tight regular nit's, who pushing only AA on preflop or set on flop, for example. So sometimes u can look at flop with cold calling 3bet/4bet against such players. But anyway it's just a cooler/bad beat, and KK it isn't hand which u can just fold on preflop, even when u see some raise from nit.I want to note that my game experience is not so great that my opinion was expert, but what I wrote is the opinion of one of the best players in the microlimit, the situation is different at the higher limits, but there it will be even more absurd to throw out kings preflop than at low =)
I myself think that the only player against whom I could throw out Ks preflop is a dude with stats like 4% for 3bet and 1-2% for 4bet.

That is my result. 42k, nl2, KK all-in preflop.
 

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Gohaku94

Gohaku94

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Hi, in 'The Microstakes Playbook' by Nathan Williams, who was one of the best microlimit player ever, I read that he can fold KK on preflop against some type of opponents. This of course some tight regular nit's, who pushing only AA on preflop or set on flop, for example. So sometimes u can look at flop with cold calling 3bet/4bet against such players. But anyway it's just a cooler/bad beat, and KK it isn't hand which u can just fold on preflop, even when u see some raise from nit.I want to note that my game experience is not so great that my opinion was expert, but what I wrote is the opinion of one of the best players in the microlimit, the situation is different at the higher limits, but there it will be even more absurd to throw out kings preflop than at low =)
I myself think that the only player against whom I could throw out Ks preflop is a dude with stats like 4% for 3bet and 1-2% for 4bet.

That is my result. 42k, nl2, KK all-in preflop.
I've actualy read the book "crushing the microstakes" also by Nathan Williams and there are very good informations about playing big pair aggresively always but he didn't had something about folding them pre which is odd cause he is updating his past books too.

Anyway You got KK all in preflop alot more than me ( maybe im unlucky with the action i get with KK ) and doing great with it. Are You playing 6 or 9 max? I played all 35k hands at 9-max might this be the reason since 9-max is tighter ( but i don't think that would be this tight ).
Anyway
 
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mikeisthebestever

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The reason your allin w/ KK stats are so bad is because player's stack sizes should play a huge factor in your decisions preflop and you dont seem to be taking that into account before shoving.

-When you shove with KK, its for value, which means if you arent going to get called by a WORSE hand, its the wrong move


-100+ bb are very unlikely to just punt off their stacks to run their equity against a deep stack preflop shove range
 
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Ivan Andreyev

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Nathan Williams did.

I've actualy read the book "crushing the microstakes" also by Nathan Williams and there are very good informations about playing big pair aggresively always but he didn't had something about folding them pre which is odd cause he is updating his past books too.

Anyway You got KK all in preflop alot more than me ( maybe im unlucky with the action i get with KK ) and doing great with it. Are You playing 6 or 9 max? I played all 35k hands at 9-max might this be the reason since 9-max is tighter ( but i don't think that would be this tight ).
Anyway
I'm playing 9 max with ante. And the players there play more loose. :D
He did:
Can you fold KK pre-flop? Sure you can. But should you? Rarely. The probability that someone has a 9-max table it turns out that AA, when you hold KK, is only 4%. In one case, from 25 they will have AA. In the remaining 24 will not be. The main thing you should remember about coolers is that They will be in the same quantity with you and with your opponents. You do not need to worry about this, because if the rival was in your place (and this will happen), then he almost certainly would also lose the entire stack.
I'm even ready to say that with a stack of 100bb or less you are practically never throw out KK pre-flop. The only case, when you should think about folding it, perhaps, 4-bet in the cold from incredibly tight nit.
But we know that on NL2 and NL5 you have a purchase option for 200bb +. Against a very nitty player, I pretty easily fold KK on preflop if our stacks are very deep. I look at it this way. Similar situations (KK vs. AA) happen rarely, but still happen. I have a huge advantage over such a tight player. And although he, probably, may be QQ or AK, AA is still significant part of its range. I do not want to give so much The big blinds to such a weak player only because luck was on his side.
You should understand that for such tight players (which are now full of micro-limits) situations like this are the only ones where they can win something from you. Well and still
The situation when one set rests on the other. In their game practically there is no such thing as a bluff. Playing at a multitude of tables, they just play all your hands straight.
Make hiro-folds against such nits (especially if each of you deep stacks), and move on to the next hand. Just rejoice in it. Against any other player, I will almost always be
ship all your money pre-flop with a pair of KK and go broke. But under the word "ruin" I actually mean that I can win a lot of money, because in most cases I will be shown the worst hand.
Example:
The blinds are 2s / 5s. The effective stack size is 250bb.
You are in late position with
Nit makes a raise from MP to 20c, and you 3-bet it to 70c. He puts a 4-bet
up to $ 2.
You have to fold.
 
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grogrich

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Always i have KK i lost for someone who have a A2, A7...
 
schtiuky

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I had the same problems with AA so i gues its better to see the flop before all in .
 
Serjo600

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In fish can be push any two depends on situation and dynamics.
 
mbrenneman0

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Id recommend, we can safely say average villains range here is AK/QQ+ (possibly wider but I always like to assume a conservative range, the 55 might just be an outlier) do an Equity calculation of KK vs AK/QQ+
 
Gohaku94

Gohaku94

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Hi, I took a look last night over my kings overall not just all in preflop (i couldn't respond because of some policy about 10 posts per day If You are new) anyway over around 70 hands (i'll put the graph when im home or some stats) im actually winning pretty big with KK (like $38 or Something) so the problem is facing big action preflop from decent opponents not how to play them overall. Thanks
 
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Ivan Andreyev

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Hi, I took a look last night over my kings overall not just all in preflop (i couldn't respond because of some policy about 10 posts per day If You are new) anyway over around 70 hands (i'll put the graph when im home or some stats) im actually winning pretty big with KK (like $38 or Something) so the problem is facing big action preflop from decent opponents not how to play them overall. Thanks

Hi, I'm sure your problem is just bad luck: D
Watch your all-in EV in HM with all-in KKs pre-flop, I'm sure he's much higher than the "Net won" :)
I'm not sure that you need to change your strategy regarding KK, just be patient, the distance will return it: D
For example, I saw my chart above where I played pre-flop KK, and below it will be a chart with all the draws of kings in succession.
 

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proud2Bwhack

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Two things:first Daniel Negreanu said he would never fold KK preflop under any circumstances cash or tourney. read that again and think about it.


secondly, the odds you are up against AA are roughly 220 divided by the number of players you are facing. so....
6 max vs 5 players 220 divided by 5 = 44/1
9max vs 8 players 220 divided by 8 = 27/1


43 times you are ahead, one time your not.....


should you fold?
 
mbrenneman0

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Two things:first Daniel Negreanu said he would never fold KK preflop under any circumstances cash or tourney. read that again and think about it.


secondly, the odds you are up against AA are roughly 220 divided by the number of players you are facing. so....
6 max vs 5 players 220 divided by 5 = 44/1
9max vs 8 players 220 divided by 8 = 27/1


43 times you are ahead, one time your not.....


should you fold?

thats not really how you do that math in an all in situation.... like at all
 
Gohaku94

Gohaku94

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Two things:first Daniel Negreanu said he would never fold KK preflop under any circumstances cash or tourney. read that again and think about it.


secondly, the odds you are up against AA are roughly 220 divided by the number of players you are facing. so....
6 max vs 5 players 220 divided by 5 = 44/1
9max vs 8 players 220 divided by 8 = 27/1


43 times you are ahead, one time your not.....


should you fold?
About the "43 times you are ahead and one time not" from what I've saw every nit or lower vpip player wouldn't do all in misstakes preflop on those 43 times. If he has JJ or QQ he might just call your 3bet pre and do those misstakes on a low flop and you get all jos his money with KK.
I was talking specificaly about the situation when i manage to get KK all in preflop and the results. They are different after the flop because people get more confident with overpairs in flop than they are with those preflop ( this is because if preflop they put your 3-bet just on KK AA and AK they can beat half of your hands but A or K might come on flop and they can get away or still beat you 50% when the flop is low )
 
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braveslice

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” I went with KK all in preflop a total of 7 times”

Yes this is too small sample to say anything yet, except that the EV is not that large than one would guess. However, even if you go blindly all in every opportunity you get, you should still make good profit in the long run even when the stacks go in. Mind you that even 3bb is good profit which would be around winning 52 AIs out of 100 and so losing 48 times.

Not totally sure, but it seems you miss the point that when you go for stacks and they only call, you are making massive profit fully compensating outcome of AIs and then some more as seen from your graph. So you can’t really separate those 7 hands, they are part of the process of going for max profit. Many times if there is a mistake the mistake was on previous street, with KK you are pot committed almost the moment you post the blind.

Also study if AIs where you calling shove, or you shoving.
 
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