Originally Posted by dumpy620_84
I have an argument with a friend of mine about a play to make in early position with KK. 3/4ths of a way through a tournament I have KK under the gun, what is the better play here, raise 2x the BB, 3x, or limp? By the way how this particular hand worked is, I am in 7th place, with 25 left. I would just like to hear some discussion about this play.
My thoughts are to do a standard raise of 3 times, this eliminates an early position caller. I don't want an early position caller because it allows the button or blinds to call with some kind of suited connector hand, or a suited A. I like the 3 times the blind raise. This may be easier to get heads up with a raiser that may be short stacked or just someone making a play hoping it could be a race when you are sitting with a great hand. I think playing KK out of position with 3 callers can be a hard play to get away from if someone makes a play after the flop when you price everyone out of a draw, but there is a reraise, could have 2 pair, or flopped a set.
I can see this happening with the min raise though, that an AT calls, or AJ, or something like that and it is a 10 high flop you bet, get reraised, then you just maximized a huge pot there. I think it is a risky play overall, but it could give you a bigger reward.
I just think this is a good discussion and would like some input on this play, and what is optimal.
Because of the stage you're at in the tourney, I would put out a standard raise of around 2.5x, in hopes that a shorter stack (on Low 'M') would come over the top & shove. Best case scenario obviously is if this gets flatted & then you come back over the flatcaller (something alot of players when they flat in this scenario don't think about). Okay.. now that would obviously be ideal.
Worst case scenario.. the EP limp & pray for a raiser (I don't like this one at all.. maybe in a donkroll).
And yes.... seeing a flop w KK & 3 callers can suck for sure (other day in OFC buyin, I raise 4x utg & actually get 3callers. Flop comes a harmless looking 8-8-2, my stack is barely bigger than the pot, I shove.. fold, fold.. call w 8-8 for quads, LOL).
The other night I watched a good MTT player (a reg. on Fulltilt avg.buyin $50) on the final table of the Fifty-Fifty, utg with 14left in the tourney. He puts out a standard raise, around 2.2x and gets called by BB. Flop comes Q-J-X, BB checks, he actually shoves (an overbet of 4x Pot... bad move).. BB calls w QJo. I'm putting this one out here to show that playing your KK is situational. In this guy's case, he put out his standard raise (if you watch higher buyin MTTs, standard raise when blinds get high is around 2.2 - 2.3x, relying on skilled post-flop play). BUT.. this guy's table had a few really loose players (calling stations & huge blind defenders) who weren't very experienced players online (I had a stat. program running as I find it gives me better reads on the players... sometimes I'll watch a few tables when a decent tourney is closing in on the final table,.. can be pretty interesting watching the likes of Moorman, gboro, etc.). In this particular situation and with the guy's M being at around 8, there basically going to be playing for stacks so I think he should've deviated from standard raise and come in with a bigger one.
In other words.... it all depends.
Not sure how many players your tournament started with, what the stack sizes were in relation to the blinds, whether or not there's any shorites on your table (or a huge bigstack bully), what the playing styles of your opponents are, your own table image.. etc. etc. I'm assuming you're already ITM and M's are low. In this case raise it up in hopes of getting it AI preflop. Min-raising sucks imo, so does limping. Some players like to throw in an occassional limp from EP on a short-handed table if there's been ALOT of aggressive shoving happening with super low M's & huge blinds. (again.. it is always situational).
If you feel you're right about how to play it.... my advice to you.. don't even bother arguing with your friend. Let him choose to believe what he/her believes. As long as you know what you're doing.. who cares.