A-high flush over K-high flush

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Mybeardisevil

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Hi guys, was I just unlucky here? or could have you laid this second nut flush down? obviously with the K of Spades I block his AKs and he would have 3 bet that hand :0 thanks in advance

www.cardschat.com/replayer/6tdIqzP
 
greatgame230

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In Spanish there is an expression that says "it is very easy to speak having the Monday newspaper" (I don't know how it sounds in English I hope it is understood) I say this because you may think that what I am going to tell you is simple when you see the result of the hand but I would have folded the hand with that board after villain's raise I saw the hand and he was yelling at you (metaphorically speaking) I have the As, for me it was an easy fold.
 
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fundiver199

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Preflop
Standard open although at 2NL I dont see any point in going this small. People are calling stations at these stakes, so just go bigger for value. At minimum 3BB.

Flop
He lead into two players for half pot, and I just dont think, you have a lot of fold equity in this spot, so I prefer to just call. The issue with raising is also, that you build up the pot, which is not so great, when you are drawing to the very obvious second nuts.

Turn
You made your hand, but its a little optimistic to try and get 2 streets of value. So I might actually check back here for a bit of deception and also pot control. Make it look like you were raising top pair "for protection", and now you slow down, because you did not like the fourth spade coming.

You did bet however, and now he check-jam. This is a vomit spot, and you put yourself into it by raising on the flop. I do actually think, you can fold here. He only need 1 card to beat you, so its not that difficult to have. There are basically 45 ways to have it, which is quite a lot.

And I just dont see him taking this line without the A of spades. 4-flush boards are very special, because its so easy to have the nuts, and you can not block the nuts without having it. So what are people even turning into a bluff here? Maybe some world class players are balanced and actually have some bluffs, and some complete donkeys do this with Qs or Js. But everyone in between always have As, when they make this move.

Conclusion
The key thing here is, that you lose to 45 combos. So this is not the same as having KK on AK952 4-tone, where KK is second nuts, and you only lose to 3 combos of AA. Its not how many different hands beat you, its how many different combos. So you basically overvalued your hand, and this started already with the raise on the flop.
 
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Mybeardisevil

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fundiver199 said:
Preflop
Standard open although at 2NL I dont see any point in going this small. People are calling stations at these stakes, so just go bigger for value. At minimum 3BB.

Flop
He lead into two players for half pot, and I just dont think, you have a lot of fold equity in this spot, so I prefer to just call. The issue with raising is also, that you build up the pot, which is not so great, when you are drawing to the very obvious second nuts.

Turn
You made your hand, but its a little optimistic to try and get 2 streets of value. So I might actually check back here for a bit of deception and also pot control. Make it look like you were raising top pair "for protection", and now you slow down, because you did not like the fourth spade coming.

You did bet however, and now he check-jam. This is a vomit spot, and you put yourself into it by raising on the flop. I do actually think, you can fold here. He only need 1 card to beat you, so its not that difficult to have. There are basically 45 ways to have it, which is quite a lot.

And I just dont see him taking this line without the A of spades. 4-flush boards are very special, because its so easy to have the nuts, and you can not block the nuts without having it. So what are people even turning into a bluff here? Maybe some world class players are balanced and actually have some bluffs, and some complete donkeys do this with Qs or Js. But everyone in between always have As, when they make this move.

Conclusion
The key thing here is, that you lose to 45 combos. So this is not the same as having KK on AK952 4-tone, where KK is second nuts, and you only lose to 3 combos of AA. Its not how many different hands beat you, its how many different combos. So you basically overvalued your hand, and this started already with the raise on the flop.
Click to expand...

thanks for your analysis, so how are the 45 combos made up? you guys are really helping me and I appreciate it. :D
 
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Mybeardisevil

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greatgame230 said:
In Spanish there is an expression that says "it is very easy to speak having the Monday newspaper" (I don't know how it sounds in English I hope it is understood) I say this because you may think that what I am going to tell you is simple when you see the result of the hand but I would have folded the hand with that board after villain's raise I saw the hand and he was yelling at you (metaphorically speaking) I have the As, for me it was an easy fold.
Click to expand...

I study Spanish at university and understand the expression. thanks so much for your input :)
 
ranynight

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You just unlucky here, was in the same situation today)
 
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fundiver199

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Mybeardisevil said:
thanks for your analysis, so how are the 45 combos made up? you guys are really helping me and I appreciate it. :D
Click to expand...

There are 52 cards in the deck, and 7 of them are spoken for. 4 on the board, 2 in your hand, and then As. This mean there are 45 cards left, which As can be combined with. He might not have all of these from the preflop action, since for instance he might 3-bet AsAc or AsKd, but 45 is the maximum number of combos, you potentially lose to.

For comparison if there are 3 spades on the board, there are only 9 ways to make the nut flush, and if you have a K high flush, there are only 7. This is why, its generally considered a cooler, if you run KsJs into As5s on QsTs2c3d4s, and most people will agree, that you cant avoid going broke.

But when the flush is only made with 1 card, its not quite so much of a cooler, and while you are still going to lose some money, losing your entire stack in a 100BB cash game will typically be to much.
 
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yoshi352000

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Unlikely hopefully next time, you'll have the Ace and put your opponent in that tough spot.
 
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Mybeardisevil

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fundiver199 said:
There are 52 cards in the deck, and 7 of them are spoken for. 4 on the board, 2 in your hand, and then As. This mean there are 45 cards left, which As can be combined with. He might not have all of these from the preflop action, since for instance he might 3-bet AsAc or AsKd, but 45 is the maximum number of combos, you potentially lose to.

For comparison if there are 3 spades on the board, there are only 9 ways to make the nut flush, and if you have a K high flush, there are only 7. This is why, its generally considered a cooler, if you run KsJs into As5s on QsTs2c3d4s, and most people will agree, that you cant avoid going broke.

But when the flush is only made with 1 card, its not quite so much of a cooler, and while you are still going to lose some money, losing your entire stack in a 100BB cash game will typically be to much.
Click to expand...

thanks for explaining that to me I think its penetrating my skull :D so it's not so much of a cooler if I only have one spade because it's easier for them to also have a flush on a four flush board. while it is cooler if my hole card king was suited because I am blocking him from having those suited cards on a 3 card flush board? Am I understanding correctly?
 
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Dhendrixon

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Would have been a fold to me on the turn with the 4th spade. He called your re-raise on the flop, what would he have in his hand to do that with? Then he check jammed your turn bet, I think he is only doing that with the nuts.
 
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fundiver199

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Mybeardisevil said:
thanks for explaining that to me I think its penetrating my skull :D so it's not so much of a cooler if I only have one spade because it's easier for them to also have a flush on a four flush board. while it is cooler if my hole card king was suited because I am blocking him from having those suited cards on a 3 card flush board? Am I understanding correctly?
Click to expand...

Not so much that you are blocking him, but that its much more difficult for him to have a better hand.

QQ on Q9552 losing to 55 - huge cooler
9X on KQJT2 losing to AX - not really a cooler

In both these situations you have the second nuts, but they are not the same at all.
 
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macfars

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Hard to Lay down

I would have found that difficult to lay down.

Maybe with KQ you raise it up a bit more pre-flop and that would give you an indication as to his hand strength. He did have A10 so he might not have laid it down. Always difficult with a 4th street flush. Someone could limp in with that Ace. My own brother did that to me in vegas. I can't live it down. (I had flush before him) He limped in on the river.
 
Pripri1986

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It was a unlucky day! Happens to me sometimes too!
 
Evan Jarvis

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Mybeardisevil said:
Hi guys, was I just unlucky here? or could have you laid this second nut flush down? obviously with the K of Spades I block his AKs and he would have 3 bet that hand :0 thanks in advance

www.cardschat.com/replayer/6tdIqzP
Click to expand...


Hard to lay it down but... if they had a worse flush they may just call your turn bet and check/call the river bet.

That being said unless you plan to check back the King high flush on the river you're basically getting all the money in anyway so what can you do.

Little bit unlucky, but definitely worth asking what is his check raise range on the turn and play your hand accordingly.
 
Plut41

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Just a cooler. Laying K flush is -even in that spot. Usually if I feel my opponent might have it I don't bloat the pot and just call.
 
YuriDitz

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I wouldn't discount the flush to K either, but I wouldn't increase the pot as much as you would.
 
willjosp

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when the color is very evident on the table it is recommended if you are not risking your position in the tournament you can pay but if they go with all it may be that another player linked the color to A:eek:
 
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Holdem is Foldem you know. It's the problem of odds. Sometimes even I don't know why I play this game. You have to keep holding up and need some big storage to bear volatility.
 
pokerace_1

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all of us are sometimes in unhappy mode, it happened to me today:(

DJms2S78
https://postimg.cc/DJms2S78
 
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Tomek416

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Unfortunately it has happened to me a few times and I was all-in.
 
darkvick

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patience guy, it happens. and after it happens some times you'll learn to avoid this
 
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No Bologna

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No Bologna

Not a fun decision but the nuts are the nuts (as long as a straight flush isn't available). King high is an easy fold, I've learned over time, the hard way. Every time I'd try it I'd get nailed. Comes around often when you play Omaha8 alot.
 
emejota23

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sometimes that happens, I lose everything in one hand, but hey, it's poker stuff. :D
 
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