My journey to learning decent poker in cash games

N

Narcotic35

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Hi all,

I think the time has come to start my own cash game thread. I first started playing poker some 10 years ago (Titan, partypoker & PStars). Back then I was never really successful, but I started to read a lot and managed to get my bankroll to about $100 from a single $30 deposit playing mainly full ring $2 and $5 NL. Then I went on tilt and lost everything and only stopped when I had like $2 left, mainly because I was stabbing too much at higher levels. My frustration led me to quit poker some 8 years ago.

Due to life circumstances I never went back until this January. This is when I realized how much I love this game and that I have been missing it a lot. I reactivated my account at PStars and deposited $20, but never recovered my other accounts. I played, recovered some "lost" knowledge and started out winning a bit on $2NL, but have had massive swings, tilt, the whole story again - down to zero. Again, I was messing too much with $1 Spin&Gos, $5NL etc., without knowing what I was doing. So i stopped again.

A weekend passed, I reflected and made a plan. I deposited another $20 and I was going to do it better this time. I focused on 6-max and resat all the classes I could find, watched videos, etc... and registered at CC!! and started out again. $2NL only, winning, loosing, peaked at $34, down to $8 again.

Now, after some 20k+ hands playing every day, I am at a point where I have learned a few very important lessons, I believe. Today my bankroll is at $50.67.

My key learning point so far: forget $2NL zoom. I have only been playing $2NL standard and $5NL zoom these last days. It was the only way to get the ABC play and starting/3-bet charts back into my head and to apply stuff I have learned - at $2NL zoom it seems impossible to identify the maniac/fish/whatever players and I have been doing dramatically better at the other tables.

I invite you all to join me on this journey and to stop me from quitting again. So far, support in this forum has been amazing and has really helped deal with my tilt issues. I will be posting hands, tactics, ideas, questions, everything in here - all feedback welcome.
 
This Fish Chums

This Fish Chums

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I've had many a tilting "gonna quit" points, but I always come back to poker. The point I'm at now, I don't deposit anymore. I just play freerolls online and then play live $1/$3 tables at the local Casino. The freerolls keep me entertained without frustrating me, and the live games somehow make losing a lot less tilt-worthy. Maybe because you're in front of real players and don't want to pull a Helmouth.

I'd have 2 suggestions though. If you bust again, try playing at lower levels. At the higher levels, 1 bad hand will bust you out. You need some padding so you can take bad beats and still have bankroll left.
Second, if you ever get fed up and feel like quitting, play freerolls and play them for fun, not necessarily to win them. Being able to play for fun and not take the game seriously for a while has helped me maintain composure when I do play for real.
 
N

Narcotic35

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Stats over the last 20 days for 6-max NL Holdem $2 and $5 (including tilt period), some 20k hands maybe (Jivaro):

VPiP 25%, PFR 15%, AFq 48%/50%/51%, 3-bet 5%, F3Bet 74%, FSt 74%, CBet 66%/50%, FCBet 62%/50%, RBet 7%.

My best tournament result so far has been a 1st place in a $0.50 (45) Sit & Go, and some very minor money places (3?) in other micro tournaments. I have done OK in some micro KO tournaments, but no other final table. I generally struggle with Tournaments when they are A) very big, like 1000+ players and B) too fast, ie hyper turbo and sometimes even turbo.
 
EvertonGirl

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I wouldn't play 5NL as you are not rolled for that. I would keep playing the 2NL and when you get your BR back up to $100 then you can think about moving up to 5NL.

Don't let tilt ruin your game, if you start to experience downswings, take a breather and come back refreshed.

GL :)
 
N

Narcotic35

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I've had many a tilting "gonna quit" points, but I always come back to poker. The point I'm at now, I don't deposit anymore. I just play freerolls online and then play live $1/$3 tables at the local Casino. The freerolls keep me entertained without frustrating me, and the live games somehow make losing a lot less tilt-worthy. Maybe because you're in front of real players and don't want to pull a Helmouth.

I'd have 2 suggestions though. If you bust again, try playing at lower levels. At the higher levels, 1 bad hand will bust you out. You need some padding so you can take bad beats and still have bankroll left.
Second, if you ever get fed up and feel like quitting, play freerolls and play them for fun, not necessarily to win them. Being able to play for fun and not take the game seriously for a while has helped me maintain composure when I do play for real.

I actually went to the local casino today and plan to play there either this weekend or next - I have never played live :eek:. The problem with the PS freerolls is that they are so massively overbooked - I can't cope with 30,000+ players. Dis too much.... I am looking forward to the CC restricted freerolls =) For now I am sticking to $5NL (maybe?) - I feel there the tactics/strategy/pot odds/statistics start to work. $2NL is a lottery at PS (and boring). I am thinking that although the additional $50 are not in my PS account, I would deposit them if needed.
 
N

Narcotic35

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I wouldn't play 5NL as you are not rolled for that. I would keep playing the 2NL and when you get your BR back up to $100 then you can think about moving up to 5NL.

Don't let tilt ruin your game, if you start to experience downswings, take a breather and come back refreshed.

GL :)

Thanks for the quick reply. I actually said to take the first $5 I made above $30 for a stab at $5NL and now I'm at $50 from one buy-in. BUT, I accept your advice. This is just a short upswing that might end with the next hand and bam! there I go again. So, yes, I will go back to $2NL and stick to what I have learned. Thanks for reminding me. In the end I said to do it better this time...
 
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Narcotic35

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Hmm.... it's been a very disappointing week so far. Playing a couple of hours yesterday (being too tired) and drawing dead for most of the session today my bankroll was up and down a bit at first then much more down than up. I decided to try and play one or two micro tournaments which didn't turn out to be a very good idea either. So my bankroll is down to a shocking $34.44 now.

I am struggling to understand what exactly I could do better at the levels I am playing as the very often totally erratic betting behavior of most players is driving me insane. There seems to be close to zero fold equity on $2NL, most people never 3-bet and some do it all the time. Sometimes it works to pick the right spot and squeeze them hard, but most of the time I end up loosing AA to 8-4o or to single card flushes or so.

I have seen the whole Carroters 6-max course (some episodes twice) as a refresher and watched some of his twitch steams, have my starting charts and 3-bet charts constantly open, never snap bet, always think about position, hand ranges and so on - totally useless it seems. The more I try to play "sensibly" the more frustrated I get because it seems a pure lottery.

As with tournaments, any tournament with a buy in of $1.1 or less seems to be a all-in or nothing gamblers convention even 2 hours into a tournament. No matter if you have <10BB or 20BB.....:reddy:

So what have I been doing to do to adapt? Tightening up, dropping my VPiP to 10 or less at some tables, still bollocks.... It is destroying the fun I have playing the game and results in a rather Kafkaesque experience.

So my question is...should I just deposit up to $100+ so I can reasonably bankroll playing at $5NL? Or should I just go in stoic mode, keep insisting, have a cup of tea whenever I feel I want to strangle everyone at the table (not really, just in my imagination of course) and wait and hope that February brings a few more freerolls that have less than 30k+ players :confused:

Thanks for your input!

P.S.: Some of the smileys are amazing :saint:
 
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So my question is...should I just deposit up to $100+ so I can reasonably bankroll playing at $5NL? Or should I just go in stoic mode, keep insisting, have a cup of tea whenever I feel I want to strangle everyone at the table (not really, just in my imagination of course) and wait and hope that February brings a few more freerolls that have less than 30k+ players :confused:
If you are not crushing NL2 then you shouldn't go for NL5 either in my opinion. After all, those two stakes are not that different and there are still same kind of crazies in NL5 as well. NL2 can be really annoying because of those lunatic players but are you sure that you are playing the game as good as possible? I'm asking because crushing NL2 should be pretty easy for anyone who has decided to take this game seriously. Of course when it comes to downswings, there is basically nothing you can do about it but if you keep repeatedly losing at the lowest level, there could be a problem in your own game as well. I'm not here to blame, I'm just trying to help and figure out the reason :)

You should focus on getting called when you have a strong hand and if those players are crazy, they will call you down if you play your cards right. Just be patient and don't let them get under your skin. I wouldn't recommend playing too tight either and I think that VPIP under 10 is too tight. You should be playing more hands and therefore let yourself a chance to hit two pairs, straights or flushes with hands like 76s and so on.
 
N

Narcotic35

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If you are not crushing NL2 then you shouldn't go for NL5 either in my opinion.
You are not alone with that opinion and I think you are right. I have been playing all right and normally run positive on most tables, but I think I have a serious balancing problem, as one or two tables that don't go well will immediately eat up the gains.
I'm not here to blame, I'm just trying to help and figure out the reason :)
Oh, please. I am very thankful for any advice and insight from players with more experience. I am very aware I have some horrible leaks in my play and I am here to identify them and get rid of them as much as I can.
You should focus on getting called when you have a strong hand and if those players are crazy, they will call you down if you play your cards right. Just be patient and don't let them get under your skin. I wouldn't recommend playing too tight either and I think that VPIP under 10 is too tight. You should be playing more hands and therefore let yourself a chance to hit two pairs, straights or flushes with hands like 76s and so on.
I have been trying to do that and was aiming for a VPiP around 21-24% and a PFR ca 16-18%. Thank you for the feedback, I will just get back to the tables tonight or tomorrow, after a little break at the gym, and try to play according to what I've learned so far. I will post how it has been going.
 
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Narcotic35

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A quick update: The gym was the best solution. It gave me time to switch off for a while and tonight I decided to go back to the tables, because I was feeling much better.

And I have changed a few things: play much more relaxed and I went back to full ring $2NL. WOW. With less than 200 hands I am back at $40.64. That's like 1.5BB/hand. I shall continue this way. And everything without really tricky hands (hence no hands posted).

Thanks for all the advice @ everyone ! :D
 
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cwdignus

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I believe that the values you are playing are in disagreement with Br, buy has to be equivant to Br / 100, Zoom mode is very difficult for you to lay out a play, study the opponent, try other formats, in different rooms, very good luck on your journey
 
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Hi all,

I think the time has come to start my own cash game thread. I first started playing poker some 10 years ago (Titan, PartyPoker & PStars). Back then I was never really successful, but I started to read a lot and managed to get my bankroll to about $100 from a single $30 deposit playing mainly full ring $2 and $5 NL. Then I went on tilt and lost everything and only stopped when I had like $2 left, mainly because I was stabbing too much at higher levels. My frustration led me to quit poker some 8 years ago.

Due to life circumstances I never went back until this January. This is when I realized how much I love this game and that I have been missing it a lot. I reactivated my account at PStars and deposited $20, but never recovered my other accounts. I played, recovered some "lost" knowledge and started out winning a bit on $2NL, but have had massive swings, tilt, the whole story again - down to zero. Again, I was messing too much with $1 Spin&Gos, $5NL etc., without knowing what I was doing. So i stopped again.

A weekend passed, I reflected and made a plan. I deposited another $20 and I was going to do it better this time. I focused on 6-max and resat all the classes I could find, watched videos, etc... and registered at CC!! and started out again. $2NL only, winning, loosing, peaked at $34, down to $8 again.

Now, after some 20k+ hands playing every day, I am at a point where I have learned a few very important lessons, I believe. Today my bankroll is at $50.67.

My key learning point so far: forget $2NL zoom. I have only been playing $2NL standard and $5NL zoom these last days. It was the only way to get the ABC play and starting/3-bet charts back into my head and to apply stuff I have learned - at $2NL zoom it seems impossible to identify the maniac/fish/whatever players and I have been doing dramatically better at the other tables.

I invite you all to join me on this journey and to stop me from quitting again. So far, support in this forum has been amazing and has really helped deal with my tilt issues. I will be posting hands, tactics, ideas, questions, everything in here - all feedback welcome.

What would you say was the most important thing you've learned in your time playing poker at those stakes?
 
N

Narcotic35

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What would you say was the most important thing you've learned in your time playing poker at those stakes?

I would say three things:
1) I don't know how to play fast tables. Not having a history about how players are acting at the table makes it impossible for me to tell if I am ahead or behind. It's still not easy on regular tables, but my reading skills are certainly not good enough for zoom.
2) Reviewing hands, even when I think I made a right play, getting the sharp end of variance immediately puts my ability to keep playing at risk at $5 NL. That's what bankroll management actually is about, I suppose. The message is getting there.
3) I'm my own biggest obstacle and need to get a grip of my tilt. It will help to try and be more relaxed and patient, not to play when overly tired and not trying to force situations in bad moments. Only that way will I get to play solid ABC poker without which I will never stop being a loosing player.


It will take (quite some) time to address these. Bad behaviour and habits are hard to change. I think/hope I'm starting to actually understand the message.


Did you pick up something else in my description that I should consider?
 
N

Narcotic35

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I haven't been able to play very much these past days. However, I have been sticking to the advice you have given and I have only played standard 6-max and full ring games, very little zoom (all $2NL) and just one or two micro tournaments / freerolls. Although my initial luck hasn't continued (as was to be expected) I have managed to dramatically decrease the swings and not to drop below $40 BR at any time. I am now back at $45.59.

A bit of patience and repeating the basics over and over again, trying to play solid poker and avoid gambling seems to be working out.

On Thursday my trial period for Jivaro ends and I will try out HM4. I shall be posting hands and graphs once it's up and running. Thanks everyone for the advice and support.
 
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Narcotic35

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It has not been a very good time since my last post. I seem to be doing a lot of things wrong again and on top of that I seem to always get called by someone who just so happens to outdraw me one card later. This makes me think that maybe my betting is not aggressive enough, but then how are you going to get someone out of a hand who is drawing for a 2nd pair? You can't possibly play totally passive either.

Anyway, here is a hand that I think I played rather poorly. Betting 2/3 of pot on the turn was stupid, only someone I cannot beat would call there. The question is, if I had checked there and gotten aggression back, it would have had to be a fold. Any suggestions how to approach this?

https://www.jivaro.com/profile/Narcotic35/posts/5a776284e34a6c5f049417ba/

The hand was zoom 6-max $NL, no hand history on villain.
 
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Narcotic35

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I have had a very mixed time at the tables, good and bad. My BR has been down to $33, but with some discipline I have managed to get back to $43.26. I have been better at managing my tilt, but I seem to find AQ a really difficult hand to play at the moment - I just never seem to feel I am well enough ahead to bet hard. The same goes for set mining where I have been running into numerous flushes, straights and boats - or I get no action at all and just collect the blinds.

Here a few hands to discuss. All opinions welcome.

All hands: PokerStars Zoom, 6-max, Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02)

1)
BU ($3.39 in chips)
SB ($5.27 in chips)
BB (Hero) ($2.02 in chips)
UTG ($2 in chips)
MP ($2 in chips)
CO (Villain) ($0.83 in chips)

Not much history on Villain, only the fact that he is playing very short stacked.

Preflop: Hero is BB with T
spade4.gif
T
diamond4.gif

UTG folds, MP raises to $0.06, CO calls $0.06, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.21, MP calls $0.15, CO calls $0.15

Flop: ($0.64) A
club4.gif
9
spade4.gif
3
heart4.gif
(3 players)
Hero bets $0.35, MP folds, CO calls $0.35

Turn: ($1.34) 2
club4.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $0.27, CO calls $0.27 and is all-in

River: ($1.88) 7
heart4.gif
(2 players, 1 is all-in)

Results: $1.88 pot ($0.07 rake)
Final Board: A
club4.gif
9
spade4.gif
3
heart4.gif
2
club4.gif
7
heart4.gif

Hero showed T
spade4.gif
T
diamond4.gif
and won $1.81 ($0.98 net)
CO showed K
diamond4.gif
9
diamond4.gif
and lost (-$0.83 net)

2)
poker stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $3.44 (172 bb)
BB: $2.16 (108 bb)
UTG: $2.06 (103 bb)
MP: $2 (100 bb)
CO: $1.72 (86 bb)
Hero (BTN): $2.03 (101.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with Q
diamond4.gif
A
diamond4.gif

2 folds, CO raises to $0.06, Hero raises to $0.17, 2 folds, CO calls $0.11

Flop: ($0.37) K
heart4.gif
3
heart4.gif
6
heart4.gif
(2 players)
CO checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.37) 8
heart4.gif
(2 players)
CO bets $0.18, Hero folds

Results: $0.37 pot ($0.01 rake)
Final Board: K
heart4.gif
3
heart4.gif
6
heart4.gif
8
heart4.gif

CO mucked and won $0.36 ($0.19 net)
Hero mucked Q
diamond4.gif
A
diamond4.gif
and lost (-$0.17 net)

3)
Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $1.61 (80.5 bb)
BB: $0.81 (40.5 bb)
UTG: $2 (100 bb)
MP: $2.31 (115.5 bb)
Hero (CO): $2.13 (106.5 bb)
BTN: $5.29 (264.5 bb)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A
spade4.gif
Q
club4.gif

2 folds, Hero raises to $0.05, BTN calls $0.05, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.13) 7
diamond4.gif
K
diamond4.gif
Q
diamond4.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $0.08, BTN calls $0.08

Turn: ($0.29) 6
heart4.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.14, Hero folds

Results: $0.29 pot ($0.01 rake)
Final Board: 7
diamond4.gif
K
diamond4.gif
Q
diamond4.gif
6
heart4.gif

Hero mucked A
spade4.gif
Q
club4.gif
and lost (-$0.13 net)
BTN mucked and won $0.28 ($0.15 net)
 
N

Narcotic35

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Here we go, my first post in a while. At the beginning because I was too busy at work to get to play enough, then because I was ashamed to share how dismally bad things had gone. But here we go:

I stuck to the plan to play only .01/.02 NL and I have started to play a bit of PLO as well, which I found great fun, but also much trickier due to my lack of experience and making many beginner's mistakes.

Somehow HM managed to loose my database half was through as well. The summary is this: on PS I am down from $50 peak to $9.75, but I have not had to deposit again. At this stage I count that as bit of light at the end of the tunnel. I have also deposited $40 on 888 and managed to hold that for some time, but I am now down to $21.

Here are the graphs for pokerstars (graph and stats are NLH only)

PS NLH graph
PS NLH stats

And for 888 Poker the same

888 NLH graph
888 NLH stats

Judging from the stats, would you suggest I am still playing too passively?
 
N

Narcotic35

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Hand discussion

Here is a hand that I just played:
Poker Stars, $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite.

SB: $3.55 (177.5 bb)
BB: $1.59 (79.5 bb)
UTG: $1.03 (51.5 bb)
MP: $2.24 (112 bb)
CO: $2.40 (120 bb)
Hero (BTN): $1.80 (90 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BTN with T
heart4.gif
9
heart4.gif

UTG raises to $0.05, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.05, SB raises to $0.18, BB calls $0.16, UTG folds, Hero calls $0.13

Flop: ($0.59) 7
club4.gif
8
heart4.gif
J
diamond4.gif
(3 players)
SB bets $0.18, BB folds, Hero calls $0.18

Turn: ($0.95) 6
diamond4.gif
(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.57, SB calls $0.57


River: ($2.09) K
diamond4.gif
(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.87, SB calls $0.87

Results: $3.83 pot ($0.13 rake)
Final Board: 7
club4.gif
8
heart4.gif
J
diamond4.gif
6
diamond4.gif
K
diamond4.gif

SB showed Q
heart4.gif
J
spade4.gif
and lost (-$1.80 net)
Hero showed T
heart4.gif
9
heart4.gif
and won $3.70 ($1.90 net)


I was feeling very uneasy about flat calling the 3-bet here with no info on the other players. But I played it by chart (https://www.pokerstarsschool.com/article/Defending-Your-Opens-Against-3-Bets) and flopped a monster. When the FD completed I was not sure again what to do, but I considered it unlikely that he would call all the way down to the river with nothing but a BDFD. When he showed his hand I was thinking: How often have I let myself be pushed out of a hand in this way?

All comments welcome!
 
N

Narcotic35

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Update

I have had a mixed time. After not doing very well on PS (BR down to $2.19) I have decided only to play the freerolls there. My game on 888 has had a similar fate although I am only down to $19.21 there.

I saw a twitch stream from a game on unibet and kind of liked the interface and the fact that it's de facto hub free. I realized this would force me to focus more on my fellow player's actions and to analyze the development of every single hand much more. This has been a major leak in my game and using a hub hasn't actually helped me much, although I have adjusted my starting hands and aggression play according to the stats I gathered from there.

On Unibet I started out with a €24 deposit and I peaked at €84, currently €78 playing both NLH and PLO which I am enjoying more and more. I am still getting to grips with the interface and how to share specific hands and so, which is why I am not posting any hands right now. Oh, I also freerolled myself into a €100 ticket for the Unibet Open - if I make it through one more round I will win a €500 ticket and entry to a full weekend live tournament in Glasgow which would be pretty exciting, so wish me luck !!
 
N

Narcotic35

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I have been playing almost exclusively on Unibet and although I busted out 6th in the $100 qualifier (4 tickets), I got a re-entry ticket and last Saturday I finished as chipleader. There was a hand that really got my heart racing that I've posted here: www.cardschat.com/forum/tournament-hand-analysis-51/100-nlhe-mtt-kk-facing-action-374311/

Other than that, with a few bumps and bits, I have been playing a lot of PLO €4 (lowest available) and PLO €10 with a free ticket I got from rakeback.

It's been a dream...after a short swing to $69, I'm up to $135 now. I seem to be getting much better at reading opponents and assessing my outs.

I also went to the local casino with £60 And playing PLO .25/.5 I went home with £130 in my pocket.

Let's enjoy the upswing while it lasts :D
 
N

Narcotic35

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PLO $4, 6-max

Hero BU (90BB), villain (130BB) plays very aggressive, pot opening every other hand and pot barreling FDs, AAxx And even TP TK.

Hero has 446sAs

Villain open raises pot (again!) From UTG/LJ, fold, fold, Hero calls from BU, rest fold.

Flop 4s 6c Js

Villain raises 1/2 pot, Hero hesitates and min-raises, villain pot bets, hero 4-bets all in, villain snap calls.

Turn Kc, River 8d

What do you think? Reckless or unavoidable?
 
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