I've hit a wall

I've hit a wall.

6425 hands
VPIP 11.47 PFR 7.44.
26 sessions 36.79 Hrs


I've had a couple of spewy moments but only a couple. I am playing tight positonal poker but just lose more than I win. Aside from going broke with AA and KK a few times I just don't know what is going on. I feel that maybe the way I play Overpairs and TPTK might be a problem. If I c-bet I win a lot of small pots. If I play WA/WB I seem to lose to an opponent making 2 pr on the river. I have a hard time getting paid off when I make a monster but seem willing to get my stack in with AA KK AK QQ pretty easily. Maybe I am playing too Nitty but when I fold it almost always feels like I made the correct decision when I watch the flop as a spectator. Right now I am at 13 BI for 5NL. If I drop down to the point where I am just above 20 BI for 2NL I won't have a choice but to drop down.

I am not panicking yet, partly because Full Tilt gave me a $ 50.00 instant bonus for reloading after having not played with them in almost 2 years. I do feel that I am learning how to play Poker but I wonder if I have some blind spot in my decision making apparatus that is causing this leak in my BR.

If you feel like you don't get enough action, then you need to loosen up. If you play with halfway observant players, they will fold if you show strength. Use that image to steal some blinds.

Also, you may not be playing the players enough. You can't stick with a nitty strategy all the time without adjusting.

Im not real sure what you view as positional poker.
But only playing 11/7 isnt that.


I play 15/14 UTG bro. 34/29 from the btn.
That would seem more positional to me.


Start loosening up you LP vpip/pfr.
Do it slowly so you can be comforatble.

But without a better stats picture. Id say start there.



edit: ps. And at 6k hands its not really a wall. Its not anything yet.

The Dark Side said:

Im not real sure what you view as positional poker.
But only playing 11/7 isnt that.


I play 15/14 UTG bro. 34/29 from the btn.
That would seem more positional to me.


Start loosening up you LP vpip/pfr.
Do it slowly so you can be comforatble.

But without a better stats picture. Id say start there.



edit: ps. And at 6k hands its not really a wall. Its not anything yet.

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First of all this is a great forum and I am really learning a lot.

Here are some numbers:

Button: 22.19 /10.72
Seat 3: (MP+1) 8.59/ 7.69
UTG: 4.73/ 4.44
SB: 17.91/ 8.25

You mentioned a VPIP from UTG of 15. I'm not Poker expert but that sounds like you must play any PP + AK, AQ, AJ & Broadway suited connectors?? If so that's playing OOP with a lot of marginal hands. How do play 55 or KTs from EP when you miss the flop?? Do you c-bet when you miss or check/call? Sounds like a recipe for trouble for newbie Poker players.

How do play 55 or KTs from EP when you miss the flop?

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Don't bring them in to begin with. You have more problems besides the flop with them. What happens if you get reraised? You def don't want to be getting into limp->call->fold situations. Your other posts about sticking to premium hands EP will do you better over the long haul. Raise with them and play them aggressively. Don't worry about 6K hands worth of stats, I'm clearing 5Kish hands/day this past week if that helps put the number in perspective. Don't try to play too tricky and try to avoid situations where your bankroll is taking a big hit and the money making should start to take care of itself.

It is possible that you have lost grips with the position element of this crazy online poker world.Not to point the finger at you but it may have had a great influence on your recent gaming.Gl at the tables

zek said:

Don't bring them in to begin with. You have more problems besides the flop with them. What happens if you get reraised? You def don't want to be getting into limp->call->fold situations. Your other posts about sticking to premium hands EP will do you better over the long haul. Raise with them and play them aggressively. Don't worry about 6K hands worth of stats, I'm clearing 5Kish hands/day this past week if that helps put the number in perspective. Don't try to play too tricky and try to avoid situations where your bankroll is taking a big hit and the money making should start to take care of itself.

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Thanks. I poked around PT3 and found some interesting statistics; granted it's only 6k hands but it may indicate that I am overplaying some hands:

HandBB/Hand
KK 4.81
JJ 3.19
QQ 1.55
JTo 1.31
AQo 1.16
A5s 0.97
44 0.96
JTs .86
55 .81
A9s 0.71
88 0.57
AA 0.40
66 0.40
Q9s 0.35
KTs 0.25
QTs 0.21
KJo 0.21
AQs 0.17
AJo- 1.12
TT- 1.24
KQs- 1.51
A8s- 1.55
AKs- 2.11
AJs- 3.32

fx20736 said:

Thanks. I poked around PT3 and found some interesting statistics; granted it's only 6k hands but it may indicate that I am overplaying some hands:

HandBB/Hand
KK 4.81
JJ 3.19
QQ 1.55
JTo 1.31
AQo 1.16
A5s 0.97
44 0.96
JTs .86
55 .81
A9s 0.71
88 0.57
AA 0.40
66 0.40
Q9s 0.35
KTs 0.25
QTs 0.21
KJo 0.21
AQs 0.17
AJo- 1.12
TT- 1.24
KQs- 1.51
A8s- 1.55
AKs- 2.11
AJs- 3.32

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You're dealt AA (or any PP) 1 time out of 221. So, in 6,000 hands you've probably seen AA only around 27 times. Throw a couple of coolers in there and you can easily explain your low winrate with the hand as variance. Of course this doesn't mean you AREN'T misplaying the hand, it just doesn't mean that you necessarily are. To determine that, maybe you should post some example hands.

Are you isolating and trying to get heads up before the flop with your big hands?

Also, I find that when someone has leaks that are causing them to "hit a wall" it is usually the many more common and often smaller mistakes that are hurting them rather than a problem with how they play monsters.

HardKnox said:

You're dealt AA (or any PP) 1 time out of 221. So, in 6,000 hands you've probably seen AA only around 27 times. Throw a couple of coolers in there and you can easily explain your low winrate with the hand as variance. Of course this doesn't mean you AREN'T misplaying the hand, it just doesn't mean that you necessarily are. To determine that, maybe you should post some example hands.

Are you isolating and trying to get heads up before the flop with your big hands?

Also, I find that when someone has leaks that are causing them to "hit a wall" it is usually the many more common and often smaller mistakes that are hurting them rather than a problem with how they play monsters.

Click to expand...

I NEVER slowplay AA. Again, small sample but here are two hands. In the 1st example I just couldn't see that I was behind postflop. In the 2nd a donkey just got lucky,

Full Tilt - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3: http://www.pokertracker.com
CO: $5.65
BTN: $4.93
SB: $10.54
BB: $4.61
UTG: $5.00
UTG+1: $5.00
MP: $2.80
MP+1: $5.00
Hero (LP): $6.34
SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05
Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has Ac Ah
fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.17, CO calls $0.17, fold, SB calls $0.15, fold
Flop: ($0.56, 3 players) Td Kh 3s
SB checks, Hero bets $0.50, CO raises to $1.50, SB calls $1.50, Hero raises to $6.17 and is all-in, CO calls $3.98 and is all-in, SB calls $4.67
Turn: ($18.38, 3 players) 5s
River: ($18.38, 3 players) Th
CO shows Tc Ts (Four of a Kind, Tens)
SB shows Ad Qs (One Pair, Tens)
Hero shows Ac Ah (Two Pair, Aces and Tens)
CO wins $15.87
Hero wins $1.29

************8

Full Tilt - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3: http://www.pokertracker.com
UTG: $7.16
Hero (MP): $7.13
CO: $3.00
BTN: $5.00
BB: $5.00
BB: $4.24
BB posts BB $0.05
Pre Flop: ($0.05) Hero has Ad Ac
BB calls $0.05, fold, Hero raises to $0.20, fold, fold, fold, BB calls $0.15
Flop: ($0.45, 2 players) 9c 7s 2h
BB checks, Hero bets $0.24, BB calls $0.24
Turn: ($0.93, 2 players) 4d
BB checks, Hero checks
River: ($0.93, 2 players) Kd
BB bets $0.50, Hero raises to $1.50, BB raises to $2.50, Hero raises to $6.69 and is all-in, BB calls $1.30 and is all-in
Hero shows Ad Ac (One Pair, Aces)
BB shows Kc 9h (Two Pair, Kings and Nines)
BB wins $7.97

As was already stated, this is a tiny sample so I wouldnt worry too much. You've got a 4.5% call from UTG? Stop that. Open limping is an easy leak to plug.
11/7 for 6max is pretty nitty. I play a 19/15 and am considered a bit tight. I dont FR but this still sounds tight. Id focus on one game, 6max or FR, FR will suit the tight play better and incrementally start opening more hands from LP. Trying to play both FR and 6max without a solid game wont be a winning combo.
GL!

I'm actually a bigger fan of how hand #1 was played. I admit I haven't played these games before, but judging from the SB's willingness to stack off with a gotshot and an over I think it's pretty hard to fold. You'll run into KT sometimes and a set once in awhile, but I bet these guys are also stacking off with Kx a lot and of course straight draws. Maybe I'm just salivating at SB's play and my judgment is skewed and it's a fold...

On hand two you actually did slow play. You bet the flop relatively small, CHECKED BACK THE TURN, and then spazzed out (IMO) on the river. In this single raised pot I would cbet bigger, and on that turn card bet big again. On the river I'm maybe betting smaller to try and get value out of whatever marginal pair he has. And I'm probably going to get owned a bit if he raises small on the river and I call... but I'm not 3bet shoving.

I know it's hard to put him on a hand that beats you here (#2). At the same time, what hands get to showdown that then 3bet you on the river that you can beat? Pretty much just bluffs... So in this hand I don't think your 4bet makes much sense.

fx20736 said:

I NEVER slowplay AA. Again, small sample but here are two hands. In the 1st example I just couldn't see that I was behind postflop. In the 2nd a donkey just got lucky,

Full Tilt - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3: http://www.pokertracker.com
CO: $5.65
BTN: $4.93
SB: $10.54
BB: $4.61
UTG: $5.00
UTG+1: $5.00
MP: $2.80
MP+1: $5.00
Hero (LP): $6.34
SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05
Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has Ac Ah
fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.17, CO calls $0.17, fold, SB calls $0.15, fold
Flop: ($0.56, 3 players) Td Kh 3s
SB checks, Hero bets $0.50, CO raises to $1.50, SB calls $1.50, Hero raises to $6.17 and is all-in, CO calls $3.98 and is all-in, SB calls $4.67
Turn: ($18.38, 3 players) 5s
River: ($18.38, 3 players) Th
CO shows Tc Ts (Four of a Kind, Tens)
SB shows Ad Qs (One Pair, Tens)
Hero shows Ac Ah (Two Pair, Aces and Tens)
CO wins $15.87
Hero wins $1.29

************8

Full Tilt - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3: http://www.pokertracker.com
UTG: $7.16
Hero (MP): $7.13
CO: $3.00
BTN: $5.00
BB: $5.00
BB: $4.24
BB posts BB $0.05
Pre Flop: ($0.05) Hero has Ad Ac
BB calls $0.05, fold, Hero raises to $0.20, fold, fold, fold, BB calls $0.15
Flop: ($0.45, 2 players) 9c 7s 2h
BB checks, Hero bets $0.24, BB calls $0.24
Turn: ($0.93, 2 players) 4d
BB checks, Hero checks
River: ($0.93, 2 players) Kd
BB bets $0.50, Hero raises to $1.50, BB raises to $2.50, Hero raises to $6.69 and is all-in, BB calls $1.30 and is all-in
Hero shows Ad Ac (One Pair, Aces)
BB shows Kc 9h (Two Pair, Kings and Nines)
BB wins $7.97

Click to expand...

wetyeti said:

As was already stated, this is a tiny sample so I wouldnt worry too much. You've got a 4.5% call from UTG? Stop that. Open limping is an easy leak to plug.
11/7 for 6max is pretty nitty. I play a 19/15 and am considered a bit tight. I dont FR but this still sounds tight. Id focus on one game, 6max or FR, FR will suit the tight play better and incrementally start opening more hands from LP. Trying to play both FR and 6max without a solid game wont be a winning combo.
GL!

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Maybe I put the down the wrong stat. I just looked at PT and in position 6 (UTG)I have a VPIP of 4.8 and a PFR of 4.52. From UTG+1 the numbers are 4.22/ 3.92.That translates to only playing AA-TT,AK & AQs. I ALWAYS open raise and then raise or fold. The only exceptions I make are if I am in MP/ LP and there are 2 limpers in front. I might limp behind with a sm pp or sc.

Also I only play Full Ring In the one example it was a FR game that was shorthanded at the time I played the hand.

Thanks

Edit: One other thought; I am done checking my Overpair/ TPTK hands at 5NL. The truth is I would rather take down a small pot on the flop than lose a big one on the river. OP's and TPTK are decent hands but not great and if poor players are going to play rag aces or try and set mine then I'll charge them to outdraw on me. If I flop top set I am only going to get action if my opponent has top pair/ two pair etc. anyway so I cannot induce someone to stack off with nothing. I would rather bet the flop and bet the turn and check the river or bet the flop & check/ call a turn bet on a dry/ uncoordinated board or maybe bet the flop and check-raise the turn than check and lose initiative. If I am going to call a turn bet with an OP I might as well bet out. Rather give up on the river if my opp does show strength like he flopped a set instead of playing a guessing game or swearing because I gave a free card.

In the 2nd hand, just call the river bet. Why check the turn, give him a free card, then go nuts on the river when he clearly hit something? I guess you were "slow playing" him, but you only have a pair of aces...

If the villain river bet didn't convince you, the reraise should have told you to slow down. There was zero need to shove. Any hand that calls you has you beat.

I would have bet bigger on the flop, bet again on the turn, then just call river bet if the hand proceeds the same way.

blueskies said:

In the 2nd hand, just call the river bet. Why check the turn, give him a free card, then go nuts on the river when he clearly hit something? I guess you were "slow playing" him, but you only have a pair of aces...

If the villain river bet didn't convince you, the reraise should have told you to slow down. There was zero need to shove. Any hand that calls you has you beat.

I would have bet bigger on the flop, bet again on the turn, then just call river bet if the hand proceeds the same way.

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Thanks. I am still so retarded when it comes to the river. One of the reasons I play tight is that it simplifies all the other decisions somewhat. I need to work on postflop play a lot more.

HardKnox said:

I'm actually a bigger fan of how hand #1 was played. I admit I haven't played these games before, but judging from the SB's willingness to stack off with a gotshot and an over I think it's pretty hard to fold. You'll run into KT sometimes and a set once in awhile, but I bet these guys are also stacking off with Kx a lot and of course straight draws. Maybe I'm just salivating at SB's play and my judgment is skewed and it's a fold...

On hand two you actually did slow play. You bet the flop relatively small, CHECKED BACK THE TURN, and then spazzed out (IMO) on the river. In this single raised pot I would cbet bigger, and on that turn card bet big again. On the river I'm maybe betting smaller to try and get value out of whatever marginal pair he has. And I'm probably going to get owned a bit if he raises small on the river and I call... but I'm not 3bet shoving.

I know it's hard to put him on a hand that beats you here (#2). At the same time, what hands get to showdown that then 3bet you on the river that you can beat? Pretty much just bluffs... So in this hand I don't think your 4bet makes much sense.

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+1 to this. I wanted to say this exactly

hittin the wall would be an upgrade for me i can't even drive the car lol..everytime i think i have winning hand someone suks me out on the river ..everytime.

HardKnox said:

You're dealt AA (or any PP) 1 time out of 221. So, in 6,000 hands you've probably seen AA only around 27 times. Throw a couple of coolers in there and you can easily explain your low winrate with the hand as variance. Of course this doesn't mean you AREN'T misplaying the hand, it just doesn't mean that you necessarily are. To determine that, maybe you should post some example hands.

Are you isolating and trying to get heads up before the flop with your big hands?

Also, I find that when someone has leaks that are causing them to "hit a wall" it is usually the many more common and often smaller mistakes that are hurting them rather than a problem with how they play monsters.

Click to expand...

Great stuff. I recently put together a spreadsheet to analyze some of the big money situations to see what's going on in upswings/downswings etc. Turns out over my career the premiums and sets have made up like 65% of my win rate. Getting dealt premiums less often than average and adding coolers in there can make a huge impacts over even a sample of 70k hands. Getting dealt pockets pairs less, flopping sets less and losing when you do flop them make a huge impact as well over a large sample. Mix those together and a winning style can lose over 100k hands. This is especially true for a tight style OP has going on.

ive got a newbie question that i hope no one laughs at me over. how is he getting his own stats? all his vpip, numbers form the button, UTG, and other positions.. his variance with all the hands AA,KK,AK and all that. how is he getting such organized stats?

Rmoneymaker8 said:

ive got a newbie question that i hope no one laughs at me over. how is he getting his own stats? all his vpip, numbers form the button, UTG, and other positions.. his variance with all the hands AA,KK,AK and all that. how is he getting such organized stats?

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Psssst, over here, come closer...ok. Here's a little secret that will blow your mind.

Go to google, search Hold'em Manager and PokerTracker3. They're tools used to track your hands, your stats and the stats of others. They're awesome and very powerful tools. They're also completely legal. Try both free trials, and if you're serious about poker, buy the one you prefer. It will help massively with your game, these days it's neccesary if you're serious about your game, even just to review stats after sessions or count your winnings/losses.

You're welcome