Is it the right idea to play very aggressive on the bubble of a turbo Sng?
benevg
Legend
Silver Level
i wouldn't claim any authority (i will gladly admit i suck at this game), but didn't you answer yourself? if you try to still be aggressive and you always end up 4th, that should mean something (not good). then again, if you become too passive, i guess the same thing would happen...
dj11
Legend
Silver Level
Seems that when anyone allows their 'M' to get that low, circumstances begin to dictate actions.
Hard as it will be, as turbos happen so fast, spend a bit more time trying to get the feel, or rhythm of the table. This becomes mostly player reads, but there are a few other incidentals involved.
Hard as it will be, as turbos happen so fast, spend a bit more time trying to get the feel, or rhythm of the table. This becomes mostly player reads, but there are a few other incidentals involved.
WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
If your consistently getting to the bubble with a low M you need to start being aggressive earlier in the tourney. I'd rather go out 6th or 7th while being aggressive with good cards than get to the bubble and be in push/fold mode.
B
Bentheman87
Visionary
Silver Level
I'm naturally a conservative player, but I still have a pretty good aggressive game. But I am always card dead near the end of the tournament (when it gets 4 handed). I'll get the ocassional big hand, but somehow I just can't bring myself to raise on the button with a King 3 suited. Here's how a typical game will go for me....
I almost NEVER go out in 9th, 8th, 7th, 6th or 5th place, it's very rare that I do. I'm conservative in the beginning and only play the premium hands. They don't come around often, so by the time the game gets down to 4 players I usually have around 1200-1800 chips with an M between 4 and 9. The chip leader (if there is a big chip leader) usually bullys the table, which is the right strategy if your chip leader. My strategy is to loosen up greatly, but I am not super aggressive. Like I said, even with a fairly low M almost in the red zone, I just can't bring myself to raise on the button with hands like ace 2, king 4, queen 7. Should I be raising strongly with these hands??? Say my M is 7, I know I'm supposed to be aggressive, but if I have a king 7 and raise 3x BB, and the small blind goes all in, I have an almost mandatory call. If I lose the hand then I'll be severely shortstacked or knocked out. When my M is exactly 3 and its folded to me, I will push all in with any two cards besides two low unpaired cards. I get called probably 80% of the time by some average or slightly better than average hand, and of course usually lose, since I'm on the bad end of a 40-60.
The times that I do get first or 2nd in a turbo Sng are games where I get a real hand or two on the bubble, like a pair of aces, pair of kings, or Ace king. But usually, out of the last twenty hands I get dealt before I get knocked out, my best hand will be a pair of 6s or ace 8 or king ten. Decent hands but not the kind you really "want" to gamble a lot of your chips with.
I almost NEVER go out in 9th, 8th, 7th, 6th or 5th place, it's very rare that I do. I'm conservative in the beginning and only play the premium hands. They don't come around often, so by the time the game gets down to 4 players I usually have around 1200-1800 chips with an M between 4 and 9. The chip leader (if there is a big chip leader) usually bullys the table, which is the right strategy if your chip leader. My strategy is to loosen up greatly, but I am not super aggressive. Like I said, even with a fairly low M almost in the red zone, I just can't bring myself to raise on the button with hands like ace 2, king 4, queen 7. Should I be raising strongly with these hands??? Say my M is 7, I know I'm supposed to be aggressive, but if I have a king 7 and raise 3x BB, and the small blind goes all in, I have an almost mandatory call. If I lose the hand then I'll be severely shortstacked or knocked out. When my M is exactly 3 and its folded to me, I will push all in with any two cards besides two low unpaired cards. I get called probably 80% of the time by some average or slightly better than average hand, and of course usually lose, since I'm on the bad end of a 40-60.
The times that I do get first or 2nd in a turbo Sng are games where I get a real hand or two on the bubble, like a pair of aces, pair of kings, or Ace king. But usually, out of the last twenty hands I get dealt before I get knocked out, my best hand will be a pair of 6s or ace 8 or king ten. Decent hands but not the kind you really "want" to gamble a lot of your chips with.
Steveg1976
...
Silver Level
I am no expert but everything that I have seen and read and my limited experience all say you need to be a little more aggressive early. If your M is that low by the time you make it to the final table what can you do? The chip leaders are going to put you all in at the drop of a hat, and if you don't play anything but premium hands you get blinded out in no time. Even with 1800 if you then double up to 3600 everyone else still will most likely have a big enough lead on you that you are still a pest not a threat.
V
viking999
Visionary
Silver Level
The answer is that you should never have an M of 3 (unless you have a slightly shorter stack all-in and he wins). You should start shoving all-in instead of a normal 3x raise when you get down much below an M of 10. Some say even at 10 or 9, but I make some allowance for turbos, because everyone has that low an M and you're going to get called liberally.
You're going to get called by almost any hand when you have an M of 3, because you can't be giving much worse than 2:1 pot odds to the BB. If you should get down to 3, then you should either shove with any two and hope to get lucky, or you should try to pick up a hand before the BB hits you (if you have that luxury).
The hands you've listed (A2, K4, Q7) are some of the worst hands to be raising with in a 6-10 M situation. Very rarely will they be in ok shape versus a call (maybe Q7 on a fluke versus an underpair). When you're down to 5 or lower M, then A2 gains some actual value, because you might be called by KQ, KJ, QJ, etc. My advice would be to pick hands like suited connectors (or one gappers), any pair, and any two high cards. If need be, throw in some steals with any two cards, just to keep your head afloat by taking down the blinds. Don't be afraid to get it in with a bad hand. To anyone who really knows, it will not reflect badly on you as a player, because it's a mathematically correct play (due to the size of the blinds and the high reward:risk ratio).
So in short, I would advise shoving instead of making a normal raise with a short stack, and I would play A2o, etc. the same as I play 72o (i.e. it's only good for a total steal). If by any chance you do get to an ultra-short stack, then I'd open up to include any A, or potentially any two cards.
You're going to get called by almost any hand when you have an M of 3, because you can't be giving much worse than 2:1 pot odds to the BB. If you should get down to 3, then you should either shove with any two and hope to get lucky, or you should try to pick up a hand before the BB hits you (if you have that luxury).
The hands you've listed (A2, K4, Q7) are some of the worst hands to be raising with in a 6-10 M situation. Very rarely will they be in ok shape versus a call (maybe Q7 on a fluke versus an underpair). When you're down to 5 or lower M, then A2 gains some actual value, because you might be called by KQ, KJ, QJ, etc. My advice would be to pick hands like suited connectors (or one gappers), any pair, and any two high cards. If need be, throw in some steals with any two cards, just to keep your head afloat by taking down the blinds. Don't be afraid to get it in with a bad hand. To anyone who really knows, it will not reflect badly on you as a player, because it's a mathematically correct play (due to the size of the blinds and the high reward:risk ratio).
So in short, I would advise shoving instead of making a normal raise with a short stack, and I would play A2o, etc. the same as I play 72o (i.e. it's only good for a total steal). If by any chance you do get to an ultra-short stack, then I'd open up to include any A, or potentially any two cards.
WVHillbilly
Legend
Silver Level
Remember that 10th pays the same as 4th and there is no prize for most bubbles. Take a few chances (with position) when the stacks are deeper and you can play a little. Do not sit around and wait to get lucky with a premium hand while the blinds eat you alive. I am a tight player myself (VP$IP under 19) but I'll make a play from the button with any of the hands you listed if the situation is right during the entire tourney. If someone calls you need lots of help to win. If they reraise, you can throw it away as long as you don't wait till you have no chips left to start making moves.