Shumkoolie
Legend
Silver Level
I'm probably not 4 bet shoving with either hand. Maybe I'd 4 bet, leaving myself a good stack behind. I'm more likely to fold than to shove, unless my stack size behind was such that folding is not an option, and as LinkornU said, you have a really good read on your opponent.
K
Karametric
Rock Star
Silver Level
Not likely.
How loose are they 3-betting, and how loose do you think they would call the 4-bet?
4-betting like this would pretty much always leave you getting destroyed if you are called. with most people I think they would only do it with KK or AA. So if they 3-bet A LOT, as in any time they have anything decent, maybe. But then again, it would probably be better to 4-bet 30ish BB. Usually it will be the same result with less risk.
Really depends on their 3-bet range, and how many hands they have in there that aren't AA or KK. If it is tight, don't try it.
How loose are they 3-betting, and how loose do you think they would call the 4-bet?
4-betting like this would pretty much always leave you getting destroyed if you are called. with most people I think they would only do it with KK or AA. So if they 3-bet A LOT, as in any time they have anything decent, maybe. But then again, it would probably be better to 4-bet 30ish BB. Usually it will be the same result with less risk.
Really depends on their 3-bet range, and how many hands they have in there that aren't AA or KK. If it is tight, don't try it.
veltins
Legend
Loyaler
no way 4 bet shoving on top of 3 bet of 9 blinds.. that will be bad shove ..it s too deepstack n you hae only AK or QQ....make 4 bet of around 25to 27 bb n see if he calls or shoves on top,, if he shovs then it s easily KK or AA most probably , so easy fold for u..100 bb is too deep to shove with QQ or Ak
4soul
Visionary
Silver Level
Most of the time is profitable to just fold at 3-bet in this kind of situations and without position...or you need to flat call in position, if you're quite reading the posibility of having AK, AQ or JJ, after analyze the HUDs.
G
GWU73
Visionary
Silver Level
4 bet shoving vs 4% seems to spazzy. You are risking 97 bb to win about 13bb. You are likely getting called by 1/2 of that range. When you do get called your talking AA, KK, QQ & AK. You will be in bad shape. Roughly 1/2 the time you win 13bb pre flop. The other half the time you are losing roughly 75 bb. Run an EV calculation to see exact numbers.
DrazaFFT
public static void
Bronze Level
here...
4% roughly 99+,AQs+,AKo 56 combos
if he stackoff QQ+ AKs its 22 combos out of 56 comos which is 39.2% stackoff range
so if you open with 3bb from MP/CO, he 3bets from BTN (easier to calculate) to 9bb and both blinds fold (again to make it easier to calculate) you have a 13.5bb pot. if you shove and he folds 60.8% of a time you will win 13.5x.608 = 8.2EVbb on average
when we stackoff we win total pot which is 200bb (both of our stacks) + 1.5bb from blinds = 201.5bb so
stackoff%(our_equity x total_pot - our_shove) + fold_equity x unprotected pot
.392(our_equity x 201.5 - 97) + .608 x 13.5
now you take pokerstove or equilab and run QQ+ AKs vs hands that you wanna stackoff against the range, put the equity in the equation and if the final number is greater than 0 you are in a +EV spot if its negative its -EV
for example
http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Win Tie
MP2 62.33% 53.47% 8.86% { QQ+, AKs }
BB 37.67% 28.81% 8.86% { AKs }
.392(.3767 x 201.5 - 97) + .608 x 13.5=
.392(-75.9 - 97 ) + 8.2 =
.392(-21.1) + 8.2 =
-8.27+8.2 = -0.08EVBB
so shoving into QQ+AKs is marginally -EV or break even
run this for either JJ, TT AKo, KK and you will see where you are at +Ev and where you are at -EV
you can also take different stackoff range into the calculation so you will have different fold equity
lets say that he stackoff with JJ+, AKs, AKo which is 40 combos out of 56 combos which is 71% stackoff range and 29% fold equity, put this different percentages into formula then run your hands against the stackoff range, put your stackoff equity inside and you will get the picture...
lets say
http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Win Tie
MP2 52.63% 51.05% 1.58% { JJ+, AKs, AKo }
BB 47.37% 45.79% 1.58% { QQ }
.71(.4737 x 201.5-97)+.29 x 13.5
.71 x (-1.78) + 3.91
-1.26+3.91 = 2.65EVbb
so pushing QQ into 4% range that will stackoff JJ+ AK is +EV by 2.65EVbb on average
you can play with this and find what is good to push against what range and see where you are +EV and where not, but overall youre not really good with 100bb and playing this way, this plays lot better at 50bb, you actually have lot more hands that you can push and be +EV than at 50bb
4% roughly 99+,AQs+,AKo 56 combos
if he stackoff QQ+ AKs its 22 combos out of 56 comos which is 39.2% stackoff range
so if you open with 3bb from MP/CO, he 3bets from BTN (easier to calculate) to 9bb and both blinds fold (again to make it easier to calculate) you have a 13.5bb pot. if you shove and he folds 60.8% of a time you will win 13.5x.608 = 8.2EVbb on average
when we stackoff we win total pot which is 200bb (both of our stacks) + 1.5bb from blinds = 201.5bb so
stackoff%(our_equity x total_pot - our_shove) + fold_equity x unprotected pot
.392(our_equity x 201.5 - 97) + .608 x 13.5
now you take pokerstove or equilab and run QQ+ AKs vs hands that you wanna stackoff against the range, put the equity in the equation and if the final number is greater than 0 you are in a +EV spot if its negative its -EV
for example
http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Win Tie
MP2 62.33% 53.47% 8.86% { QQ+, AKs }
BB 37.67% 28.81% 8.86% { AKs }
.392(.3767 x 201.5 - 97) + .608 x 13.5=
.392(-75.9 - 97 ) + 8.2 =
.392(-21.1) + 8.2 =
-8.27+8.2 = -0.08EVBB
so shoving into QQ+AKs is marginally -EV or break even
run this for either JJ, TT AKo, KK and you will see where you are at +Ev and where you are at -EV
you can also take different stackoff range into the calculation so you will have different fold equity
lets say that he stackoff with JJ+, AKs, AKo which is 40 combos out of 56 combos which is 71% stackoff range and 29% fold equity, put this different percentages into formula then run your hands against the stackoff range, put your stackoff equity inside and you will get the picture...
lets say
http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Win Tie
MP2 52.63% 51.05% 1.58% { JJ+, AKs, AKo }
BB 47.37% 45.79% 1.58% { QQ }
.71(.4737 x 201.5-97)+.29 x 13.5
.71 x (-1.78) + 3.91
-1.26+3.91 = 2.65EVbb
so pushing QQ into 4% range that will stackoff JJ+ AK is +EV by 2.65EVbb on average
you can play with this and find what is good to push against what range and see where you are +EV and where not, but overall youre not really good with 100bb and playing this way, this plays lot better at 50bb, you actually have lot more hands that you can push and be +EV than at 50bb
Sil3ntness
Legend
Silver Level