Isolation raises and cbets out of position - micros

EchoEllis

EchoEllis

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Ok so when OOP and someone keeps limping - what do we ISO raise with and how much by?

The obvious ones go without saying - 10s+,AKs,AKo,AQs,AQo,AJs,AJo

But what about - suited connectors?
- A-trash suited/off K-trash suited/off
- JQo, JQs, KQo, KQs, Q10o, Q10s etc...

-the villain has low fold to 3bet,low fold to cbet
-the villain has average-high fold to 3bet, average-high fold to cbet


betsizing?
when to/not to cbet?

thoughts?

Thanks :)
 
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thatgreekdude

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Same as ISOing IP except I'll add 1BB, so IP i'd raise to 6bbs, OOP 7bbs. I typically ISO with obviously Preems and then suited broadway/connectors. I'm typically going to cbet a lot of boards unless I totally bricked and/or they're really wet.
 
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thatgreekdude

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won't let me edit my post above, I meant 4bbs + 5bbs, not 6 + 7 :)))
 
EchoEllis

EchoEllis

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won't let me edit my post above, I meant 4bbs + 5bbs, not 6 + 7 :)))

I was gonna say 6 BBs :p yeah I raise the same 4x IP 5-6x OOP but when you get the same guys that limp call then call cbets. Should we raise more pre? to take it down earlier OR.. just keep doing it until we hit a hand on the flop and get our value?
 
Fknife

Fknife

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I was gonna say 6 BBs :p yeah I raise the same 4x IP 5-6x OOP but when you get the same guys that limp call then call cbets. Should we raise more pre? to take it down earlier OR.. just keep doing it until we hit a hand on the flop and get our value?

Do you know the basic math behind cbetting? When cbetting half pot, you need him to fold only about 30% of the time for you to break even -> anything higher = profit (hint 1: ISOing ATC/playing with cbet sizes). If he's really that sticky with his hand, iso with hands that have good playability postflop (hint 2: suited, connected, high card value/ability to barrel on lots of good turn cards).
 
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thatgreekdude

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I was gonna say 6 BBs :p yeah I raise the same 4x IP 5-6x OOP but when you get the same guys that limp call then call cbets. Should we raise more pre? to take it down earlier OR.. just keep doing it until we hit a hand on the flop and get our value?

You can go bigger, that's gunna be best against fit or fold players post though, if you know villain has a low fold to cbet it might be best to just wait until you make a hand and then go to value town on them.
 
EchoEllis

EchoEllis

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Do you know the basic math behind cbetting? When cbetting half pot, you need him to fold only about 30% of the time for you to break even -> anything higher = profit (hint 1: ISOing ATC/playing with cbet sizes). If he's really that sticky with his hand, iso with hands that have good playability postflop (hint 2: suited, connected, high card value/ability to barrel on lots of good turn cards).

thanks, so a cbet success of more than 30% = profit? I basically never barrel bluff the turn, when are the best times to do this? It's gonna be pretty hard to rep that turned straight or flush when ive cbet the flop so do you mean when a K or Q hits the board etc?
 
Fknife

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thanks, so a cbet success of more than 30% = profit?
I would say: if he folds more than 30% (his Fold To CBet stat), we make profit by cbetting half pot with ATC. The general equation is:

EV(of cbetting) = Pot * FCB - CBet_size * (1 - FCB)

Substitute '0' (break even) for EV and solve for FCB(CBet_size) to find out how often he has to fold given your cbet sizes for you to break even.

I basically never barrel bluff the turn, when are the best times to do this? It's gonna be pretty hard to rep that turned straight or flush when ive cbet the flop so do you mean when a K or Q hits the board etc?

Thats a complicated question. I would encourage you to read chapter 4 of "Easy Game 3rd Edition" where the author perfectly explains when to stay aggressive on the turn. Basically its a combination of Pot Equity (when you simply have a strong hand or a good draw so that your opponent has to fold only very low percentage of the time for a 2nd barrel to be profitable) and Fold Equity (Player Type: low FCB but high Fold to Turn Cbet, low WTSD, high W$SD, high River AF; Board structure: dry boards vs wet boards; Number of players; Perceived Hand Range: scare cards).
 
EchoEllis

EchoEllis

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I would say: if he folds more than 30% (his Fold To CBet stat), we make profit by cbetting half pot with ATC. The general equation is:

EV(of cbetting) = Pot * FCB - CBet_size * (1 - FCB)

Substitute '0' (break even) for EV and solve for FCB(CBet_size) to find out how often he has to fold given your cbet sizes for you to break even.



Thats a complicated question. I would encourage you to read chapter 4 of "Easy Game 3rd Edition" where the author perfectly explains when to stay aggressive on the turn. Basically its a combination of Pot Equity (when you simply have a strong hand or a good draw so that your opponent has to fold only very low percentage of the time for a 2nd barrel to be profitable) and Fold Equity (Player Type: low FCB but high Fold to Turn Cbet, low WTSD, high W$SD, high River AF; Board structure: dry boards vs wet boards; Number of players; Perceived Hand Range: scare cards).

The problem with stats like fold to turn cbet is you need huge samples to get an accurate read on, that's why I use turn fold stat instead. Most sample sizes against bad players at these levels are low as they're not around for very long! And it's probably not a good idea to bluff good players, and I mean pure bluffs no draws, no pair.
 
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Wardy88

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This is where I think a lot of the money is made at these stakes. When our opponent is weak enough to be limping often and calling 3-bets we can assume that they are usually going to be playing fit or fold on the flop.

Being IP against these players is obviously preferable. If I see someone sit down and instantly starts running 65/2 or something like that I will look to move seats to gain position on them which isn't very easy on stars but it is doable.

If the table has a waiting list or I don't think I can stand up and sit back down down quick enough then playing OOP is the only option. In the blinds we can effectively play the same as if we had position as villain is going to miss the flop so often and won't play back at us we can just C-bet most flops and take it down.

When we are acting first pre, the amount I raise starts at 3x and I will progressively increase this each time I raise to see how crazy our opponent is, it usually tops out at about 5bb (meaning villain will fold most of their trash for 6bb).

When we are OOP on the flop we should still be C-betting a lot, villain will call our C-bets more IP than OOP but we should still be making a profit from this against most fish.

Betting the turn is more complicated. When villain calls the flop C-bet their range could still be pretty wide, they are calling with any draws, any pairs, sometimes A high etc, the extent to which villains range narrows is only really determined by getting experience playing against them and this in turn should inform your turn C-bet frequency, if for example they never give up with any pairs all the way to the river just give it up and value town them when you hit.

Good cards to C-bet turn with are over cards to low boards, due to villains wide preflop range and their tendency to flat C-bets in position means they will be making lots of small to middle pairs, when the K hits and you throw another big bet they are more likely to believe you and let it go than if a 2 hits.
 
EchoEllis

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This is where I think a lot of the money is made at these stakes. When our opponent is weak enough to be limping often and calling 3-bets we can assume that they are usually going to be playing fit or fold on the flop.

Being IP against these players is obviously preferable. If I see someone sit down and instantly starts running 65/2 or something like that I will look to move seats to gain position on them which isn't very easy on stars but it is doable.

If the table has a waiting list or I don't think I can stand up and sit back down down quick enough then playing OOP is the only option. In the blinds we can effectively play the same as if we had position as villain is going to miss the flop so often and won't play back at us we can just C-bet most flops and take it down.

When we are acting first pre, the amount I raise starts at 3x and I will progressively increase this each time I raise to see how crazy our opponent is, it usually tops out at about 5bb (meaning villain will fold most of their trash for 6bb).

When we are OOP on the flop we should still be C-betting a lot, villain will call our C-bets more IP than OOP but we should still be making a profit from this against most fish.

Betting the turn is more complicated. When villain calls the flop C-bet their range could still be pretty wide, they are calling with any draws, any pairs, sometimes A high etc, the extent to which villains range narrows is only really determined by getting experience playing against them and this in turn should inform your turn C-bet frequency, if for example they never give up with any pairs all the way to the river just give it up and value town them when you hit.

Good cards to C-bet turn with are over cards to low boards, due to villains wide preflop range and their tendency to flat C-bets in position means they will be making lots of small to middle pairs, when the K hits and you throw another big bet they are more likely to believe you and let it go than if a 2 hits.

Thanks, good post :) especially the progressive rise in raising limpers i'll have to try that.

So in terms of call stations would you suggest raising more earlier on in the hand or only value betting them? I'm not sure If when I 3bet light or raise pre vs the limpers/high pre flops raisers/loose players whether im making a profit doing this as they will just call preflop, float the flop then I give up on the turn - even if I were to throw in a turn cbet, what about the 1 in 3 times they hit and still don't give up? This has got to be -EV, but if I just check behind more when I miss make a delayed cbet this can be profitable or check fold if they donk out on the turn. what do you think?
 
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Wardy88

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Thanks, good post :) especially the progressive rise in raising limpers i'll have to try that.

So in terms of call stations would you suggest raising more earlier on in the hand or only value betting them? I'm not sure If when I 3bet light or raise pre vs the limpers/high pre flops raisers/loose players whether im making a profit doing this as they will just call preflop, float the flop then I give up on the turn - even if I were to throw in a turn cbet, what about the 1 in 3 times they hit and still don't give up? This has got to be -EV, but if I just check behind more when I miss make a delayed cbet this can be profitable or check fold if they donk out on the turn. what do you think?


With the calling stations we have to come up with a plan for getting the most out of these players, in my experience this usually comes down to a combination of prior knowledge or our opponent and the texture of the board, we know that most calling stations will be flatting your pre flop bet with a wide range which will include most Aces, some suited Kings, face cards, suited connectors and 1-gappers etc. What I like to do is grab a program like flopzilla or something like it and punch in the range you think villain might have pre and just start running it through flops and asking yourself "will they call 50% flop on this board? or would they check fold to any bet on that board?"

What you might come to realize is that what your opponent does has a lot to do with flop textures, villain is going to miss a board like Q 7 3 rainbow more often than A Q 9 two tone. What else is also good to think about is, even if it seems villain is calling on any boards, most fish aren't completely brain dead, they are just bad and therefore a call on the Q 7 3 will narrow their range more than a call on the A Q 9 board.

They won't be calling K4o for a half pot bet on Q 7 3, whereas on the A Q 9 board they may have a backdoor flush and a backdoor straight and think "all I need is 'x' card and then 'x' card". Which we know is not profitable thinking but they can't see that. Often this means that double barrelling is better on the disconnected unsuited flops, especially if an overcard hits, this is due to the fact that villains range can only really make weak pairs which they might continue with on the flop but are unlikely to see out big turn and river bets.

The fact that we know this information (and are able to change our minds when presented with new information) is the reason why we want the pots to be as large as possible when we play these players, thus raising preflop to get as much money into the pot is what we are going for. The job of getting the money from these players is easier if we choose a range for ourselves which is tighter than our opponents. (We can do more value betting when we hit on wet boards instead of giving up).

I see what you are saying with the delayed C-bet and this can be useful in certain situations, but lets think about it like this: if the flop comes down J 9 7 two tone we would expect our opponents to continue for a C-bet on this board with all pairs, any straight draws and any flush draws right? so does that mean that if a suited 8 or 10 or Q or K hits we are going to choose to fire our delayed C-bet? well the portion of our opponents range that made pairs on the flop may fold scared that we made a straight/flush but the larger portion of our opponents range either made their hand or made bigger draws/ bigger hands so we would expect them to continue for the delayed C-bet anyway. The times our delayed C-bet will work are the times that the turn is a brick card and our opponent doesn't have a hand but this isn't exactly great because if we had of made a standard C-bet we may have been able to get our opponent to fold their nothing hand on the flop without giving them a free card. Also if you think that our opponent has a drawing hand and will fold to a delayed C-bet if a brick hits the turn then why wouldn't we bet the flop even though they will call as that builds a larger pot for us to take down on the brick turns?

Again this leads us back to the board texture and whether we should C-bet or not, we can get away from the hand when we see the high wet boards. We can just check it back to the river if it runs out bad (straightening turns or rivers/ flushing turns or rivers) especially if we know our opponent doesn't like to give up pairs. We can C-bet and double barrel the disconnected boards and turns.

The times when our opponent has the random one pair hands and won't let it go are the times we get owned by barrelling, to counter these situations we need to take notice that villain is in fact never folding and there is nothing we can do other than wait for a hand and value bet it, C-betting these guys, even delayed C-betting won't work so we need to just play a tighter range and make better hands, these guys don't usually re load so one good hand can get all the chips and we don't have to deal with them again. (I will sometimes employ the strategy of limping behind them and try to make better hands/ bet them off their nothing hands but I wouldn't suggest this unless you are confident you know what you are doing - I think that I may be losing money trying this atm but if you never try different stuff you can't beat the curve right?)

Sorry for the wall of text but you did ask for what I thought lol.:icon_geek
 
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