Isn't poker just a zero sum game in the end?

We can play our best read up and get thousands of hands of experience but I wonder if it's just a losing proposition in the end for all of us? Say your good real good and your variance is low in fact your so good you made 96k this year online,live and in tournaments this year great right? As I said though isn't poker just losing waiting to happen eventually. Call it variance or bad luck,but I think it's just gambling and the cycle of the game even if your exploiting weaker players who aren't good.

Just like anything if you get real lucky and make millions in some tourney then essentially quit full time then I guess you won. For everyone else though they keep playing and grinding making 2k-5-k a day feel like a god then all of the sudden poof they go busto! It's just like slot machine but much longer and way different. It's a waiting game and a better investment or gamble if you use your winnings elsewhere but who does? A vp or slot player might go on a run one night and win 900 bucks, but the longer they play the house edge kicks in and they go broke it's inevitable. Poker is just like that it's and elsewhere edge waiting to happen one real bad beat,or dead cards and losing sessions make you eventually just lose everything,or most of it right?

You will lose , get unlucky but in long run you win. If you want to making a living of it you have to have healthy bank role to takes the losses, and also you have to play very high stakes. Making 2 to 5 k a day then going bust. Sounds a bit like viktor blom style from the past

Jamie gold and Chris money maker made millions in tournament but they still played. Losing quite a bit in cash games.

YEs it is zero sum game for the players, cause they're not cooperating and have different goals. Win of few means loss for others.

From the other side there is a hidden cooperation inside the game. All players are united in their will to pay the fee for participation (rake). From such point of view it's obvious that all participants of the game have the same goal and they are a team. A team of losers against a single player who always wins. The casino.

There is another point of view at the situation.
You invest money for a chance to win the money, Ok you constantly win, that's great. But the most important question: Since we don't eat money, we don't wear money, we don't use money as a fuel, we're using products that we can buy for the money, right? So when you're going to job, and do your job, whatever your job is - service, production e.t.c. - you're exchanging your time for the money by making some useful product for the society. So the question is: What is the product? What do you create with your time during poker sessions? What will you tell your grandkinds when you'll be old? "I had a flush at the final table of 200K grtd and got busted out by a full house?"
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- If the 100year human life is 24hrs * 365days * 100 years = 876.000 hours including sleep time.. let's say 1million human hours.
- If all poker rooms have 5-10 millions of players online every moment.

Then does it means that for the mankind it's the same like if 5 million human hours are erased from the planet without obvious use for the card shuffling? 1 hour from each = 5 millions of hours in total... per hour... every hour... it's like the game is erasing 5 people per hour like if they have never existed. 5 per hour, 120 per day... 365 days... tens of years... It's like a nuclear bomb that slowly kills those who build it with their buyins, tickets, odds, chances, hopes, prays, draws, royals and so on...

So what's the product that poker creates? I think it creates Low or high serotonin level. Nothing else. Most of the people are talented enough to make good money in exchange for their time, they just want to have a dream of easy millions plus this dream is supported by serotonin and adrenalin during the poker game... What do the poker "pros" recommend? Follow the JJ+AK strategy and you'll be good in the long run. Is it true? You'll be good comparing to what? You can spend tens of years for JJ-QQ-KK-AA and end up being broke or being famous... How many people have tried? How many people are on top? Ronaldo is in the pokerstars team... what he's doing there? Is he a poker pro? No he's the one who attracts millions of brasilians to poker, same story with each "poker pro"... People who have influence on their nation/country/game are in the poker pro team... Well they might be good at poker, yes ofc, but the fact is that 100 year life is 876K hours... It doesn't matter if you're good or not, it's like you have 876K chips and ante goes on every hour, blinds go up every month, if you want results in your life then you need alies, or your life can also be a zero sum game. 2 principes are important in our world. 1) split and control - we're all split in our countries/religions/interests and so on, that's why it's easy to control us. 2) unite and conquer - or unite and gain. I think there is nothing else to say about "split and control", but what about "unite and gain"? People unite into armies or into companies when they want to gain something, this is a method to play a non zero sum game...

if you have an edge against your competition then, with good bankroll management, you can make money over the long run. The model is the same model Vegas runs on: have a 60-40,55-45, etc. edge on the game you are playing/offering and enough money to sustain yourself through the downsings/variance, and you will make that 5-10% profit. Although poker is a zero-sum game, there are still winners and losers. If you feel like you are not getting anywhere or are treading water, than you likely do not have an edge over the player pool you routinely play against and need to improve your game to regrasp that edge.

No, I don't think so. If you're just playing your cards and disregarding everything else that goes into poker, then you have a point. But poker is so much more than just the actual cards that you are dealt.

I think this whole topic makes the assumption that all players play independently. This is most certainly not true. In the end, poker is a game of exploitation. Those who can figure out how to exploit most successfully will be the ones that profit. That includes everything from establishing strategy and counter-strategy to finding all possible ways (legal and illegal) to get an edge over the competition. Poker is only a zero sum game for those players who play it one way and become predictable.. which unfortunately is the case for the majority of players.

Yes most of poker is a zero-sum game. The rake complicates it a little making it a negitive-sum, but most games of poker would be zero-sum besides freerolls and games with a Gauranteed Prize Pool

Zero-sum is a situation in game theory in which one person’s gain is equivalent to another’s loss, so the net change in wealth or benefit is zero. A zero-sum game may have as few as two players, or millions of players.


A negative-sum game means that total losses exceed total winnings.


The amount of winnings or losings will always come from another players pocket. This is what zero-sum means.

To put it as simple as possible, the players that win money get the winnings from the players that lose money.

Zero-Sum has absolutely nothing to do with long term expected value. You can find a good edge in poker and use it to your advantage, unlike casino games which are designed specifically to give the house a winning edge and the player a losing edge.

Because poker is not played against the house, the edge goes to the player with the most skill over the longterm, and the winnings follow it.

If you consistently bet when you are ahead and fold when you are behind you will come out ahead.

Skill and experience is what allows you to know when you ahead or behind.

Good luck !

No I don't think so...there is always going to be variance in poker, but if you play tight and fold good hands when you are behind you can easily increase your bankroll over time...loose lips sinks ships...

Poker is a negative sum game, just like the financial market is. Two players exchange a bet, man in the middle takes his cut and then the winner is paid by the loser.

If you understood that, you're ahead of the competition.

So if you want to be a long term winner, you have to make sure to always be better than the majority of the competition. I'd say that 5% of all poker players are profitable long term, same figure as in trading, which is a little bit better than lets say professional sports, where it's below 1%.


So it's very competitive and unless you are willing to accept that and do something about it, you'll never be a winning player.

A good player is like the casino if they are better than other players. All the casino games are zero sum. The casino always wins long term.

You are completely wrong -

you cannot compare a winning poker player to a slot machine unless the slot machine has a player edge.