Introductions and a few questions from a newb.

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Hammii5010

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Greetings! I have been a lurker in here for about 3 months, so this is my "coming out of the closet" post.

I got hooked on Beanfacedkilla's cash game thread in the last few weeks. Very honest take on the joys and dream-crushing defeats of poker. Loved his positive attitude on the game or his honest feelings when the game got him down. Props sir. Learned some good lessons.

For example, reading the table climate or individual players. I want to get better at exploitative play (I actually am OK at it already).because I think this is the way to beat 1-2 NLHE. Also, just like Bean hates Saturday's, I shy away from Sunday afternoons, lol. The casino is full of good regs at that time or very conservative old guys, not easy to make any money.

Anyway, wanted to ask a question about bankroll and analyze a hand for me. Note: I understand there is a place for this but maybe a rookie exception?

Bankroll: I have $4200 right now (after losing $200 ON SUNDAY :mad:). I have $250 a month going into this account. So far, i'm a winning player (only lose really when I cant get away from AA or KK). I play only once a week for around 5-7 hours.
So... if I make good judgement about my hands, rebuys, and table selection is there anyway I could lose this bankroll at 1-2 NLHE?

Hand:
Someone in EP raises to $7. Many callers for this price. I get KK in middle position. I raise to $20. I get 5 callers! :( The flop comes down: A 8 4 rainbow. Guy in EP goes all in for $57. I call, everyone else folds except SB. Long story short: Winner had A7o and takes pot.

So.... with what i have learned about pot odds and two more cards would you have called the $57 knowing that most 1-2 never ever fold an A preflop? It was like a 4-1 call it think. Before the other caller, it was $57 more to win $160 BUT he most likely had an Ace, could you lay that down?

Anyway, look forward to having some enlightening discussions and learning bunches.

Hammii
 
Mikeisanace777

Mikeisanace777

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Good luck bud stay within your bankroll
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

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Greetings! I have been a lurker in here for about 3 months, so this is my "coming out of the closet" post.

I got hooked on Beanfacedkilla's cash game thread in the last few weeks. Very honest take on the joys and dream-crushing defeats of poker. Loved his positive attitude on the game or his honest feelings when the game got him down. Props sir. Learned some good lessons.

For example, reading the table climate or individual players. I want to get better at exploitative play (I actually am OK at it already).because I think this is the way to beat 1-2 NLHE. Also, just like Bean hates Saturday's, I shy away from Sunday afternoons, lol. The casino is full of good regs at that time or very conservative old guys, not easy to make any money.

Anyway, wanted to ask a question about bankroll and analyze a hand for me. Note: I understand there is a place for this but maybe a rookie exception?

Bankroll: I have $4200 right now (after losing $200 ON SUNDAY :mad:). I have $250 a month going into this account. So far, i'm a winning player (only lose really when I cant get away from AA or KK). I play only once a week for around 5-7 hours.
So... if I make good judgement about my hands, rebuys, and table selection is there anyway I could lose this bankroll at 1-2 NLHE?

Hand:
Someone in EP raises to $7. Many callers for this price. I get KK in middle position. I raise to $20. I get 5 callers! :( The flop comes down: A 8 4 rainbow. Guy in EP goes all in for $57. I call, everyone else folds except SB. Long story short: Winner had A7o and takes pot.

So.... with what i have learned about pot odds and two more cards would you have called the $57 knowing that most 1-2 never ever fold an A preflop? It was like a 4-1 call it think. Before the other caller, it was $57 more to win $160 BUT he most likely had an Ace, could you lay that down?

Anyway, look forward to having some enlightening discussions and learning bunches.

Hammii

I'm glad you found my thread helpful! It's nice to hear the stuff I write helps people in some way!


As for the KK hand:

3b much larger pre. I prob make it like $45. We can't be going multi-way to a flop, and that 3b size way way too small. You should never 3b less than 25, or even 30. They will call man, everyone is atrocious at live poker. You should probably be paying attention to what sizing gets calls, and what sizing folds everyone out, and construct your 3b size accordingly.

That being said, fold flop as played. No way we are ahead. The flop is so dry he just has to have an ace in his hand. We gotta find a fold on this one. $57 is $57, and we can't be calling off like this. But the whole hand plays easier if we just 3b larger. Maybe this guy ships 77 and we snap and he sucks out, and it's whatever, we didn't make a mistake then.
 
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Hammii5010

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I'm glad you found my thread helpful! It's nice to hear the stuff I write helps people in some way!


As for the KK hand:

3b much larger pre. I prob make it like $45. We can't be going multi-way to a flop, and that 3b size way way too small. You should never 3b less than 25, or even 30. They will call man, everyone is atrocious at live poker. You should probably be paying attention to what sizing gets calls, and what sizing folds everyone out, and construct your 3b size accordingly.

That being said, fold flop as played. No way we are ahead. The flop is so dry he just has to have an ace in his hand. We gotta find a fold on this one. $57 is $57, and we can't be calling off like this. But the whole hand plays easier if we just 3b larger. Maybe this guy ships 77 and we snap and he sucks out, and it's whatever, we didn't make a mistake then.

Thanks for the advice sir!


I think I just fell on my own sword on that KK hand. I was so pissed I got so many callers when I got a good hand and I think the tilting just continued throughout the whole hand. I’m pretty sure he had an ace but I was looking at the price I was getting and not listening to my rational side here. This was a new casino I was visiting for the first time and the preflop bets were a little different.


All and all I knew it was stupid, I guess this is more like a confession and asking forgiveness for being dumb.


I think it is so funny how guys can’t let go of an Ace and I normally make good money off guys that over value A6 off for example.


Any thoughts on my bankroll? I saw that yours is $20k. Did you build that up from $4 or 5k? I’m looking for inspiration man!
 
Beanfacekilla

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Thanks for the advice sir!


I think I just fell on my own sword on that KK hand. I was so pissed I got so many callers when I got a good hand and I think the tilting just continued throughout the whole hand. I’m pretty sure he had an ace but I was looking at the price I was getting and not listening to my rational side here. This was a new casino I was visiting for the first time and the preflop bets were a little different.


All and all I knew it was stupid, I guess this is more like a confession and asking forgiveness for being dumb.


I think it is so funny how guys can’t let go of an Ace and I normally make good money off guys that over value A6 off for example.


Any thoughts on my bankroll? I saw that yours is $20k. Did you build that up from $4 or 5k? I’m looking for inspiration man!

If you're referring to my screenshots of App regarding 20k, that's not accurate. I don't know where the number comes from, it's just in there by default.

As for 4200 being your roll....

Now, let's assume for a second that is all the money you have, and you have no back-up life roll (you didn't specify). If you are a 100% proven winner at 1/2, it should be ok, but it will be tight. I would really advise having at least 3 months life expenses saved and tucked away in addition to a $5k roll, but we are operating under the assumption you ARE a proven winner.

To be considered a proven winner at a certain stake, bare minimum sample size should be 600 hours, preferably 1000 hours. A $4k downswing at 1/2 is somewhat rare, but it does happen. I know I've gone on 3.5k downer before.

If you want to do this, you gotta have a sample. You could just go for it, but man I'm telling you from my experience poker is very tough man. The swings are inevitable, and they are really tough sometimes.

I am in a small network with a handful of other live players, pros who do this for their job. I'm gonna be honest with ya here, none of them, or me, would ever make that call with KK there, and we would all size the 3b much larger. So that one hand tells me a lot about where you are in the game, and what level of experience you have.

Hanging on with KK vs a donk shove for 57 on a super dry board like A-8-4r is something you can't do, like ever. Mistakes happen, but this hand falls under the category of the basics of handreading and bet sizing.

It's just another hand. We can't get married to KK, or be tilted about so many callers, being attached to a hand emotionally like that is something you're going to have to work on. It's just a spot, and easy spot. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck (he has Ax most likely there).

You know when you are put to into a tough decision, and it feels icky? Like you may be thinking "oh man, does he have it?" Did this hand feel like that? It probably did, but I'm assuming. Even less experienced players get that feeling I think.

Let's say you flop a set.

You have 6-6, the board comes out 6d-Ad-10s. Checks to you, you bet whatever, 75% pot. One opponent calls.

6d-Ad-10s.....turn 3h. Checks to you, you bet again, 60-80% pot. Opponent check/calls again.

6d-Ad-10s-3h......river 2d.

Your opponent now leads all in, for about a pot sized bet. You cover him, but not by much.

You squirm in your chair. "Does he have a flush?" you ask yourself. Tough decision. This would fall under the "icky" category. Most 1/2 players are passive, and the hand I described to you above is a pretty standard spot at 1/2. This is how some passive station would likely play a flush draw. Without some soul read, this opponent will have a flush 95% of the time here. Some opponents may get creative once in a great while, and shove like this with less than a flush, but dude like 1 out of 20 1/2 players are capable of that, for various reasons.

In live poker, at 1/2, this spot should be a fold like 99% of the time. I always pay attention to the action in games. I see other people make this call with 6-6 all the time. And the dude shows them a flush 95% of the time. I only say fold 99% of the time and not 100% because there are times - once in a great while - when you call off here, but hardly ever.

I type a lot. I wanted to illustrate the example of "icky" spots like the KK you had, or a spot like the example above. If you are gonna try to be a pro, like a legit pro, you gotta find folds a bunch dude. We can't pay them off, ever dude. Like never ever pay these fish off. That is rule #1 in my live poker book, never ever pay off fish who got there.

Then I read a book by Ed Miller. I think one of his rules was to fold also. Already knew that one. But read books by Ed Miller about live poker, specifically pertaining to 1/2.

So that's why I said based on KK hand, you may not be ready to go full time just yet. And the game is soul crushing and super tough anyway.

I hope this helps you in some way. Get like 1000 hours in, see what your winrate is. If it's an hourly rate you can live with, proceed. An acceptable winrate at 1/2 is probably $15-$20 per hour. If you can't make $15/hour, I'd say hold off, you still have a bunch of leaks that need to be addressed. And this is all based on 600 hours MINIMUM, preferably 1000 hours.

Be honest with yourself, and be humble. If you're gonna do this thing, do it right man. Don't dive in the ring if you aren't prepared and ready to fight.

And to be 100% honest man, it takes a special kind of mindset to make it in poker. The swings are so nasty dude, it's can't be understated. Not many people can handle it. It's constant stress when you're in a downswing, and if you don't have enough money to make it through without freaking out about bills and such, it's nearly impossible to make it.

I hope this helps. It's based on literally years of blood, sweat, and tears from me.
 
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Hammii5010

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Bean. Seriously, thank you for taking the time to offer up this much wisdom. I really appreciate it.

This is just a hobby that I’m really loving. I want to just have fun playing and improving over time ( something that I couldn’t do with golf no matter how much time and money spent ).


I’m a high school teacher in Delaware, so I have an income outside of poker. I just absorb lessons( about anything I’m passionate about really) and the advice about bankroll seems to apply to non-professionals too. I’m also married and want to stay that way, so I need to stay within my agreed limits.


So $4200 in the bank with $250 a month adding to this every month for eternity ( or when I retire). If it wasn’t poker it would be golf I would be blowing it on.



Thanks for the input. I guess I can feel comfortable knowing that if I don’t play like an idiot I’ll only feel the swings of variance. I want to start playing more than once a week but was fearful of more time at the tables would put my bankroll at greater risk.


Thanks again Bean.
 
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Hammii5010

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Oh wait

just realized that the more I play the LESS variance can effect me right. So the increased time at the tables actually would help me right?

If, of course, I’m a winning player over a larger sample.
 
Beanfacekilla

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Bean. Seriously, thank you for taking the time to offer up this much wisdom. I really appreciate it.

This is just a hobby that I’m really loving. I want to just have fun playing and improving over time ( something that I couldn’t do with golf no matter how much time and money spent ).


I’m a high school teacher in Delaware, so I have an income outside of poker. I just absorb lessons( about anything I’m passionate about really) and the advice about bankroll seems to apply to non-professionals too. I’m also married and want to stay that way, so I need to stay within my agreed limits.


So $4200 in the bank with $250 a month adding to this every month for eternity ( or when I retire). If it wasn’t poker it would be golf I would be blowing it on.



Thanks for the input. I guess I can feel comfortable knowing that if I don’t play like an idiot I’ll only feel the swings of variance. I want to start playing more than once a week but was fearful of more time at the tables would put my bankroll at greater risk.


Thanks again Bean.

You're welcome!

just realized that the more I play the LESS variance can effect me right. So the increased time at the tables actually would help me right?

If, of course, I’m a winning player over a larger sample.


Yes. More time at the tables = less variance overall.


Most people have a hard time accepting the nature of the game, and I'm not exempt from this either. I have a really hard time taking losses and variance. TBH I don't think I'm cut out for poker long term. It's something I've been struggling with for years, and it isn't improving. I actually regress repeatedly.


The nature of the game, simply put.... it isn't chess. Just because a player is good, or understands the game better than their opponents doesn't guarantee that they will win. They will win over time, if they execute the plan. The plan is to make better decisions than the whales limp calling with Q-4s out of position, etc, and playing terrible in general. However, it can be surprisingly tough to make good decisions when you're getting pounded by variance for weeks at a time. It seems easy in theory, but I'm telling you, it can be very very difficult.


The problem most people face, in my opinion, is they play generally well, then they hit a downswing. They start making more and more mistakes, until they eventually go busto. The downswing may have been 3k, but due to spew, bad calls, tilt, etc, the downswing will ruin them. This has happened to me more than once.


You gotta execute, no matter what. As little spew and punting as possible, always, no matter how bad you run. That's the hurdle you ultimately have to clear to get the game, and survive. Anyone can beat the game when we smash flops and punish calling stations. That's the easy part. One could argue value extraction is important, and they are right. But most important is plugging leaks.
 
elena007xxx

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What kind of bankroll do you need to play plus?
 
Aaron Soto

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KK on an Ace high flop seen by 5 player's is no good 80%-100% of the time. That's a snap fold.

4200 is simply not enough for 1/2 long run if your a daily grinder 5-6 days a week / 40-50 hours playing. Unless of course you run incredibly good and just go on a major hot streak to offset variance.

No matter what, downswings are part of the game. Do this long enough and track your sessions and you'll start seeing a consistent up, up line then down, then up, up again. If your graph is consistently going up then your doing something right. 1,500-2,000$ downswings are the norm at these stakes. If your making 15-20$ per hour at these stakes your crushing the game literally.

Best of luck.
 
bakreni

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yes snap fold with 5 players end this is cash game 4-1 ? just to call with losing hand
 
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Bean's making some good points.

I'm kind of beating the horse here, but I really want to drive this home. You got to fold KK in that spot on the flop, but more importantly you want to reduce the number of players in the hand. Most of the time villain with the short stack that called with his A7o would have folded if you would have 3-bet at least to $45. Not to mention suited connector type hands and other weak Broadway card combos.

Regarding your bankroll. Realistically, $4k is the minimum number of buy-ins you'll want for 1/2NL. Though, you're going to want to grow that to $10k to account for variance.

Also, learn how to exploit those tight players. You can make money from the fold equity.

Good luck on the felt and thanks for sharing.
 
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Serkish

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these are good advice... I usually raise high with KK pre-flop then c-bet.. if they call then I figure them for an ACE then I slow roll but then again I don't know if that's the way to play it because I HATE SEEING ACE on board when I have KK
 
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One last thing. Stay in shape, eat well, and get enough sleep. It helps keep your mind sharp!
 
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vanhieptu

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Hello

I'm a new here. Hello everyone.
 
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