interesting set of J's question

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islandtime2

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Here is what I thought was a interesting hand I recently played in a "live" cash
game with 25c/50c blinds with ~6 players who all bought in for $20.

Limps around to me on the cutoff (stack ~$30+) and I have pocket J's so I raise to $2 and the btn (stack ~$40+) and bb (stack ~$19) call and everyone else folds.
Flop comes J-Q-K rainbow so I have a set of jacks but of course it is a
very scary board with 3 broadway cards.
BB checks to me and I bet $4 and btn calls behind and then back to the bb who now check-raises allin for another $13 on top.
I know this player and he only chk raises with the nuts so is most likely A-10
for a made straight for him to check-raise allin on this flop.
So the pot now has ~$29 in it, and I have more money behind if I lose, so I
call, expecting thebtn player behind me (who I also know) to fold, but instead he goes allin also, making the pot~ $54 and I now will also be allin for my last $12 if I call.

While waiting for my decision btn makes the statement "we probably all have
the same hand" and I know this player does not make deceptive statements so now I'm pretty sure they both do have the same hand and both made straights with A-10 hands since my experience is anyone making this statement honestly is just quasi-whining about having the nuts but only getting a chop for it.

Would you call or fold and why? Would you do differently if no reliable read on hands? Would you do different if it was a tournament situation instead?
Who is actually favored to win here with 2 streets to go?
 
babydrago9

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I would call both times, the first due to the fact that theres a chance he could have something like AK, but mainly because no matter what hes got, you've always got outs. If the board pairs you win simple as that, the only hands your dead to is qq and kk which both would raise preflop. The reason for the second call is just because of the price your getting on the call, your getting around 5 to 1 so if the board pairs you get a big reward, you just cannot fold here. Although you are always losing pretty much in this spot, as all other hands except 109/a10 fold, your getting the right price to call.
 
LD1977

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People play live with 40bb stacks? Well I guess this makes for simple game play at least :D

With these stacks BB can chkraise AI with AK so yeah you should call to pull another guy in (he doesn't have odds to draw to a straight and you have outs against AT). Basically you played this perfectly.

If he only chkraises AI with the nuts on a 38 bb stack after calling a 4bb raise preflop, he is a weak fish and you should always play vs him.

As for equity vs ATo/ATo, you are slightly ahead of them individually and overall around 35% equity so this is not even debatable.
 
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tony4680

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At the point the third player reraises all in even if you put them both on A10 your priced into calling to try and make your full house. You have 35.807% equity even if they both have suited AT's with backdoor flush potential. At the point the third guy goes all in you really can't fold regardless of knowing the flopped the straight.

If you were thinking of folding it really should have been at the initial check raise. So what did you end up doing and what did they have?
 
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HooDooKoo

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At the point the third player reraises all in even if you put them both on A10 your priced into calling to try and make your full house. You have 35.807% equity even if they both have suited AT's with backdoor flush potential. At the point the third guy goes all in you really can't fold regardless of knowing the flopped the straight.

If you were thinking of folding it really should have been at the initial check raise. So what did you end up doing and what did they have?

As the prior posters noted, you easily have the odds to call if you believe that both of your opponents hold AT. The big question is, do you fear a higher set? I'm inclined to agree that pocket queens or kings would have re-raised on the button, so I think you're good if the board pairs --- but not everyone plays by the book.

The vast majority of all players make the call here, as it's very hard to get away from trips. I hope that the hand worked out for you.

-HooDooKoo
 
RodneyC86

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No brainer answer. Call. As someone said, even if someone has AT, you have to call cause so much is already in the middle....and you got FH potential.

If either of them have KK or QQ then FYL, fish happens.
 
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islandtime2

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I called but unfortunately could not catch on either street. But according to poker stove it is the correct call with 2 streets to go for the set of jacks vs 2 hands of A-10 and yes they did both have A-10 so all my outs were clean. Note - with 1 street to go it is not favored.

Thanks for replying!

Now figuring out how to improve on catching cards when I need them is next on my to do list...
 
SANDYHOOKER KY

SANDYHOOKER KY

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Those wicked jacks, get more people in trouble than any other pair. You actually played the hand right, but i think after the flop, some serious thinking should have ensued. I completely agree with some of the above posts, you had about all your money in, with 35.77% odds to win, BUT, after the flop, the jacks shrink like a 3 day old mushroom. The board was a set killer, and since you had the right read on your opponents, a laydown wouldn't be out of the question. I know it's not easy to do, but it can be done. It comes to that age old question, but what if i fill up? IF is the thing that will make you want to call, even being sure you are beat at the moment.Opponents hands are made, now you have to complete yours. Some may call me a rookie, but i was in a cash game once, with pocket aces, the flop was 7-A-2. I got a call by a player, turn was 7. I bet pretty hard, villian called again. The river was a 2.I was pretty sure i had me a fish on, until he raised me outta my seat. I thought a long time, and threw my hand face up on the table, a muck here. The table thought i must have lost my mind, and villian accused me of cheating,lol. He had pocket 2s. I saved myself around $400 in that hand, simply by being able to muck a monster hand. 99.99% of players would have called, but i forced the notion out of my head that aces full is unbeatable and it payed off. No one could fault you if you had of folded after the flop.
 
RodneyC86

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Those wicked jacks, get more people in trouble than any other pair. You actually played the hand right, but i think after the flop, some serious thinking should have ensued. I completely agree with some of the above posts, you had about all your money in, with 35.77% odds to win, BUT, after the flop, the jacks shrink like a 3 day old mushroom. The board was a set killer, and since you had the right read on your opponents, a laydown wouldn't be out of the question. I know it's not easy to do, but it can be done. It comes to that age old question, but what if i fill up? IF is the thing that will make you want to call, even being sure you are beat at the moment.Opponents hands are made, now you have to complete yours. Some may call me a rookie, but i was in a cash game once, with pocket aces, the flop was 7-A-2. I got a call by a player, turn was 7. I bet pretty hard, villian called again. The river was a 2.I was pretty sure i had me a fish on, until he raised me outta my seat. I thought a long time, and threw my hand face up on the table, a muck here. The table thought i must have lost my mind, and villian accused me of cheating,lol. He had pocket 2s. I saved myself around $400 in that hand, simply by being able to muck a monster hand. 99.99% of players would have called, but i forced the notion out of my head that aces full is unbeatable and it payed off. No one could fault you if you had of folded after the flop.

You rather put him on pocket 7s or 2s and fold the third nuts? He could have any 7, A7 , a2 which have way more comboes than just the 2 that do beat you. This is a bad fold no matter what, okay actually if the stacks were like 1000bb deep maybe
 
Duey

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Now figuring out how to improve on catching cards when I need them is next on my to do list...

If you're drawing on the flop (straight, flush, or in your case full house) multiply your outs by 4 if you plan to see both streets. If you plan on seeing 1 street and folding when you miss, multiply by 2.

ex: You have the nut flush draw on the flop and face an all-in call. 9 outs x 4 = you need 36% pot odds or better.

I hope that helps you.
 
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heAdstroMan

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a set 40bbs deep is the nuts. easy call.
 
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kmichaels

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Well, I would play it differently according to the specific situation. If i´m playing in a cash table, and if i got a nice feel i would gamble and try my shot to get a full house and win a huge huge pot, and there´s a lot of cards in deck that can give it to you. Other situation is in a tournament. If you have a huge stack, well you can afford make a call and gamble, but if you have a medium stack i would immediately fold.
 
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Izandurrrrrr

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In this situation either way is good, the less invested in the hand pre the easier the fold. Id be inclined to fold seems how i always lose with JJ. If the board pairs so be it, but it probably wont. Money saved is money earned.
 
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