Interested to hear further thoughts on Zoom play.

E

enesem

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 15, 2013
Total posts
204
Chips
0
I have had my share of controversial posts regarding play at regular cash tables. I have found my own way, I am continuing to study and return to the tables where I have had problems and I am definitely making good progress.

So, this mail is written in good faith, please don't lets start any flaming.

OK, my thing is Zoom. I had given up on Zoom, I didn't like it, but I had managed to play back to a small profit and I left it there. Then last month I had some time at an airport, not enough to settle in to a cash game, but enough for a quick round of Zoom. I lost a couple of buy ins quite quickly.

I made a previous post about zoom and picked up some good tips, but can't seem to apply them.

Since then, I have been trying to recover the loss, but the funny thing is that this game is out of control for me.

It doesn't matter what I do, I lose, every session, multiple buy ins.

I can't seem to win any hand I go in for, I am constantly and consistently outgunned.

I am playing fairly tight, I am very careful with my hands, yet this one aspect of my game is a complete leak.

I would like to hear some further thoughts on Zoom as to why it could be like this. I am fully open to the fact that I must be making some major mistakes, but I am blowed if I can work them out. It just doesn't seem to matter, it's almost as if my hole cards are on show.

I have read a few guides, and watched a number of coaching videos, and those lessons haven't worked.

Zoom is clearly a different way to play. Where I am carefully bringing all my red stats towards the green (and doing well), Zoom is completely killing may stats.

I set long term targets, for Zoom, my targets were to play until I made a profit then leave - $1 per day at 2NL and $2 per day at 5NL. However, I only have to play about 50 hands to be 2 buy ins down, so my red line is tanking and not getting any better.

I would love to say some of this is variance, though I know you won't let me get away with that :>)

I will fight my corner any day with how I approach regular play, but for this, I am completely stumped. In the interests of being an all round player, is mastery of Zoom/Rush important ?

If anyone can offer any thoughts, insights, tips, I'd be very grateful.

Thanks in advance.
 
D

donetola

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Apr 6, 2014
Total posts
7
Chips
0
i like ZOOM,but there may be fast-gage on the game and everything and lost after several unsuccessful hands
 
Fknife

Fknife

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 26, 2013
Total posts
1,128
Chips
0
@enesem

There are some videos from DeucesCracked about Zoom (mainly higher limits), some YT channels with Zoom stuff: PokerVIP or "How to play 2NL Zoom" 10 part video series etc. On top of that I've already told you about "general strategy" in your previous topic...Its just the nature of this game, its swingy, it can bring more frustration than profit. You just have to deal with it or play games where you're winning. You cant be good in everything (and there is no need for that).
 
E

enesem

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 15, 2013
Total posts
204
Chips
0
@enesem

There are some videos from DeucesCracked about Zoom (mainly higher limits), some YT channels with Zoom stuff: PokerVIP or "How to play 2NL Zoom" 10 part video series etc. On top of that I've already told you about "general strategy" in your previous topic...Its just the nature of this game, its swingy, it can bring more frustration than profit. You just have to deal with it or play games where you're winning. You cant be good in everything (and there is no need for that).

I did note your points in the previous mail, thanks for that. I hadn't seen the 10 part video series, I will watch it before venturing back, that's a great find.

I think I'll lay off Zoom for now, let it lie in the red, work on the other aspects of the game and come back to it later.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond, it's appreciated.
 
Last edited:
S

SwiftHax

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 14, 2013
Total posts
367
Chips
0
I've put around 15k hands into Zoom poker with a winrate of 12/100 at 2NL. The key to micro Zoom is to stick with your good hands in big pots. When going all-in pre, minimize your range to AA and KK. You might go with QQ when you have a read, but otherwise you're best folding the hand. With some good decisions post-flop and the above strategy you should make a nice profit from Zoom.

If you don't feel like it though, just stick to reg tables and grind there.
 
IPlay

IPlay

Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Total posts
2,593
Chips
0
Post like this are never going to help your game, post some hand histories, and I am not talking about ones that are 100% obvious coolers like you have done prior. Or, if you say you lose multiple buy ins within 50 hands, record 30 minutes of your session one of these days and post the video on here, until then people can tell you strategy over and over and over again and it won't matter. You think you are going to get any different/better advice on here then you would from professional training videos?

Good luck.
 
E

enesem

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 15, 2013
Total posts
204
Chips
0
iPlay - just saw your post.

I may do that, if I can work out how to do it.

I just thought I should throw some stats in for today, this is a typical day - I KNOW it's a small sample, but this really is very typical, so bear with me.

hands: 474, loss 123bb/100.

Notable hands:

AA: 3 times, everyone folded, didn't go to flop.
AK: 4 times, 2x everyone folded, 2x all loss with A on flop.
KK: 4 times, everyone folded, didn't go to flop.

Biggest losing hands:

QQ, lost all in to AA
AK, lost all in 1x to AQ, 1x 77
JJ, lost all in x2 vs AA

In one period of 12 hands, I lost 4 buy ins, (AK,AK,JJ,JJ).

Veeeeeery frustrating. I will take a break from it, do some more studying and reading up, have a go again.

I'll do as you suggest, record half hour and post.

Thanks again.
 
H

hffjd2000

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 6, 2014
Total posts
2,329
Chips
0
Zoom, you either win fast or lost fast.
Why our AA, KK, QQ etc not getting paid.
Why our opponents AA, KK, QQ etc getting paid.

If thats the case, its time to switch.
 
E

erlanditas

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 27, 2014
Total posts
253
Chips
0
in zoom so many limpers with like 74s, or something like thi and they continue limping when you raise like 5bb they go to see flop and if they catches you cant understand why they played with this hand.
 
IPlay

IPlay

Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Total posts
2,593
Chips
0
In one period of 12 hands, I lost 4 buy ins, (AK,AK,JJ,JJ).

You are getting it in way to often, is it always preflop? None of those hands are very good for getting it in with preflop... and if its on the flop that you are getting it in, how?
 
T

thatgreekdude

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Total posts
1,024
Awards
1
Chips
1
zoom means people play less hands as they get to see hands more often and faster especially if they are multi-tabling, i find that the problem with zoom is, well for one holdemmanager doesn't support it on stars so i don't have any information on opponents, and i find with zoom that say 8/10 times when i shove kings opponents will show up with aces, and vice versa when i have aces i'll run into kings, i think that alot of shoves in regular games aren't as clear cut in zoom poker, AK is never a good shove for zoom, however these are just some of my experiences and other people's experiences probably differ from mine.
 
LD1977

LD1977

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
Total posts
3,091
Chips
0
Actually HM2 supports Zoom, don't be lazy and set it up correctly. Ask on their forum if you have problems.
 
T

thatgreekdude

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Total posts
1,024
Awards
1
Chips
1
Actually HM2 supports Zoom, don't be lazy and set it up correctly. Ask on their forum if you have problems.

wasn't being lazy, just didn't realise.. apologies for my misleading post.
 
Arjonius

Arjonius

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2005
Total posts
3,167
Chips
0
Everyone has losing sessions. What's important is to focus on how and why you lost plus whether you should have lost less, not simply that you did lose.

And this isn't limited to big pots. Losing a couple of bb more than necessary here and there adds up. So does getting a little less value than you could have.
 
Zorman

Zorman

Rising Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 7, 2014
Total posts
22
Chips
0
zoom is great, but you will find lots of sharks there.... so watch out....
 
okeedokalee

okeedokalee

Glory To Ukraine
Loyaler
Joined
Feb 3, 2008
Total posts
5,542
Awards
22
NZ
Chips
163
Was about to have my best Zoom day ever $25 off a $2.50 buy-in was about to leave game get AA and there is larger stack all-in, of course I call.
My luck and that bitch variance gobbled up my bucks.
Opponent rivered a king for his pocket KK all-in:-(
That is how Zoom runs however big hands crush each other when the money is in, you have to roll with the punches.
 
T

thatgreekdude

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Total posts
1,024
Awards
1
Chips
1
Was about to have my best Zoom day ever $25 off a $2.50 buy-in was about to leave game get AA and there is larger stack all-in, of course I call.
My luck and that bitch variance gobbled up my bucks.
Opponent rivered a king for his pocket KK all-in:-(
That is how Zoom runs however big hands crush each other when the money is in, you have to roll with the punches.

Pains me to read that, nothing worse than getting your aces cracked by kings, it's much better when you're the one doing the sucking out :D
 
magicius

magicius

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Total posts
1,822
Chips
0
I can share my experience... I play zoom from day 1,i think i make more money in reg tables,and its easier to me noticing fish on reg table vs zoom...
In zoom there are a lot of nits that will wait AA or KK... Also if there is an aipf its usually pocket pair... I like to get into pot and wait to get my hands on set,str8 flush or similar rather than going in preflop...
Before i did push pp allin but i find i lose more money that way... Now i can only call someones shove with AA or KK,rest of hands i go to flop and than decide...



Sent from my HTC Desire X using Tapatalk
 
E

enesem

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 15, 2013
Total posts
204
Chips
0
IPlay - you asked for a typical hand - here you go.
PokerStars - $0.05 NL FAST - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 175.6 BB (VPIP: 8.00, PFR: 8.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 25)
Hero (SB): 106.4 BB
BB: 106 BB (VPIP: 17.65, PFR: 15.69, 3Bet Preflop: 12.12, Hands: 102)
UTG: 103.8 BB
UTG+1: 171.6 BB (VPIP: 6.25, PFR: 6.25, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 17)
UTG+2: 398.4 BB (VPIP: 15.38, PFR: 10.26, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 40)
MP: 125.8 BB (VPIP: 12.50, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 7.69, Hands: 34)
MP+1: 210.2 BB (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 1)
CO: 223.2 BB (VPIP: 19.31, PFR: 15.86, 3Bet Preflop: 3.23, Hands: 148)

Hero posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has K:heart: Q:heart:

fold, fold, fold, fold, MP+1 raises to 3 BB, CO calls 3 BB, fold, Hero calls 2.6 BB, fold

Flop: (10 BB, 3 players) A:heart: 7:heart: 7:diamond:
Hero checks, MP+1 checks, CO checks

Turn: (10 BB, 3 players) 6:heart:
Hero checks, MP+1 checks, CO bets 7.2 BB, Hero calls 7.2 BB, fold

River: (24.4 BB, 2 players) K:diamond:
Hero bets 11.6 BB, CO raises to 47.4 BB, Hero raises to 96.2 BB and is all-in, CO calls 48.8 BB

Hero shows K:heart: Q:heart: (Flush, Ace High) (Pre 49%, Flop 58%, Turn 0%)
CO shows 6:diamond: 6:spade: (Full House, Sixes full of Sevens) (Pre 51%, Flop 42%, Turn 100%)
CO wins 207.8 BB

Every session I will lose 3-4 buy ins with hands like this.

Edit; Just Zoom, by the way, reg cash tables are fine.
 
Last edited:
T

thatgreekdude

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Total posts
1,024
Awards
1
Chips
1
IPlay - you asked for a typical hand - here you go.
PokerStars - $0.05 NL FAST - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 175.6 BB (VPIP: 8.00, PFR: 8.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 25)
Hero (SB): 106.4 BB
BB: 106 BB (VPIP: 17.65, PFR: 15.69, 3Bet Preflop: 12.12, Hands: 102)
UTG: 103.8 BB
UTG+1: 171.6 BB (VPIP: 6.25, PFR: 6.25, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 17)
UTG+2: 398.4 BB (VPIP: 15.38, PFR: 10.26, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 40)
MP: 125.8 BB (VPIP: 12.50, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 7.69, Hands: 34)
MP+1: 210.2 BB (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 1)
CO: 223.2 BB (VPIP: 19.31, PFR: 15.86, 3Bet Preflop: 3.23, Hands: 148)

Hero posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has K<font color='red'>♥</font> Q<font color='red'>♥</font>

fold, fold, fold, fold, MP+1 raises to 3 BB, CO calls 3 BB, fold, Hero calls 2.6 BB, fold

Flop: (10 BB, 3 players) A<font color='red'>♥</font> 7<font color='red'>♥</font> 7<font color='red'>♦</font>
Hero checks, MP+1 checks, CO checks

Turn: (10 BB, 3 players) 6<font color='red'>♥</font>
Hero checks, MP+1 checks, CO bets 7.2 BB, Hero calls 7.2 BB, fold

River: (24.4 BB, 2 players) K<font color='red'>♦</font>
Hero bets 11.6 BB, CO raises to 47.4 BB, Hero raises to 96.2 BB and is all-in, CO calls 48.8 BB

Hero shows K<font color='red'>♥</font> Q<font color='red'>♥</font> (Flush, Ace High) (Pre 49%, Flop 58%, Turn 0%)
CO shows 6<font color='red'>♦</font> 6<font color='black'>♠</font> (Full House, Sixes full of Sevens) (Pre 51%, Flop 42%, Turn 100%)
CO wins 207.8 BB

Every session I will lose 3-4 buy ins with hands like this.

Edit; Just Zoom, by the way, reg cash tables are fine.

This is kind of a cooler, the fact the board is paired should slow you down a tad and check calling the river isn't always a bad play and when you bet for value and he comes in with that big re-raise, the guys stats look solid, so i'd prefer to either just call his re-raise rather than come back over the top because do you really think he is gunna be raising you with a weaker flush, folding is also definitely a legitimate option in this spot. I know some people might disagree with this as you might miss value from Ax etc.. but check calling the river isn't always bad in this spot, remember money saved is money earnt..
 
magicius

magicius

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 28, 2013
Total posts
1,822
Chips
0
Well not easyvto fold there but there are many hands that beat you,dunno why you shove in the end... With that flop i would prolly lead on flop and than check/fold....

Sent from my HTC Desire X using Tapatalk
 
IPlay

IPlay

Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Total posts
2,593
Chips
0
IPlay - you asked for a typical hand - here you go.
PokerStars - $0.05 NL FAST - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 175.6 BB (VPIP: 8.00, PFR: 8.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 25)
Hero (SB): 106.4 BB
BB: 106 BB (VPIP: 17.65, PFR: 15.69, 3Bet Preflop: 12.12, Hands: 102)
UTG: 103.8 BB
UTG+1: 171.6 BB (VPIP: 6.25, PFR: 6.25, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 17)
UTG+2: 398.4 BB (VPIP: 15.38, PFR: 10.26, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 40)
MP: 125.8 BB (VPIP: 12.50, PFR: 12.50, 3Bet Preflop: 7.69, Hands: 34)
MP+1: 210.2 BB (VPIP: 100.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 1)
CO: 223.2 BB (VPIP: 19.31, PFR: 15.86, 3Bet Preflop: 3.23, Hands: 148)

Hero posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has K<font color='red'>♥</font> Q<font color='red'>♥</font>

fold, fold, fold, fold, MP+1 raises to 3 BB, CO calls 3 BB, fold, Hero calls 2.6 BB, fold

Flop: (10 BB, 3 players) A<font color='red'>♥</font> 7<font color='red'>♥</font> 7<font color='red'>♦</font>
Hero checks, MP+1 checks, CO checks

Turn: (10 BB, 3 players) 6<font color='red'>♥</font>
Hero checks, MP+1 checks, CO bets 7.2 BB, Hero calls 7.2 BB, fold

River: (24.4 BB, 2 players) K<font color='red'>♦</font>
Hero bets 11.6 BB, CO raises to 47.4 BB, Hero raises to 96.2 BB and is all-in, CO calls 48.8 BB

Hero shows K<font color='red'>♥</font> Q<font color='red'>♥</font> (Flush, Ace High) (Pre 49%, Flop 58%, Turn 0%)
CO shows 6<font color='red'>♦</font> 6<font color='black'>♠</font> (Full House, Sixes full of Sevens) (Pre 51%, Flop 42%, Turn 100%)
CO wins 207.8 BB

Every session I will lose 3-4 buy ins with hands like this.

Edit; Just Zoom, by the way, reg cash tables are fine.

Cooler sure, but shoving the river after being re raised is a HUGE mistake. Why did you do that? Do you think he raised and will call with a weaker flush? Probably not, you costed yourself half a buy in on that mistake. Sure you got coolered but you need to minimize your loses in these spots and just flat call to that kind of river aggression, unless you got the nuts.

Never try to get it in on a paired board with a flush unless you are calling. (Though folding might still be the better option)

EDIT: Also, check out the stats of villain, does he seem like he is a maniac that is trying to get it in on the river light? His stats are super solid and you should give a player like that credit when they raise you.
 
Last edited:
E

enesem

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 15, 2013
Total posts
204
Chips
0
Yeah, I probably didn't play it optimally, but it's just an illustration of how Zoom goes for me.

I am really baffled, again, I am doing OK in normal games but Zoom is just killing me, I just can't win a hand.
 
T

thatgreekdude

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Total posts
1,024
Awards
1
Chips
1
Yeah, I probably didn't play it optimally, but it's just an illustration of how Zoom goes for me.

I am really baffled, again, I am doing OK in normal games but Zoom is just killing me, I just can't win a hand.

is the river shove a kinda frustration shove or did you believe you had the best hand at that point? and if zoom isn't working for you bro don't hesitate to give it up or take a break from it, in zoom you can either work up your bankroll fast or you run the risk of losing and taking a huge hit.
 
IPlay

IPlay

Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Total posts
2,593
Chips
0
Yeah, I probably didn't play it optimally, but it's just an illustration of how Zoom goes for me.

I am really baffled, again, I am doing OK in normal games but Zoom is just killing me, I just can't win a hand.

Everybody loses hands so that is not what is important, what is important is how much you lose on those hands. You could of saved half a buy in on the hand you posted and most players probably would have, but instead you shoved with the worst hand.

I edited this in to my last post but it may have been to late

Also, check out the stats of villain, does he seem like he is a maniac that is trying to get it in on the river light? His stats are super solid and you should give a player like that credit when they raise you.

Edit: Greek brings up a great point, was that shove from frustration or did you think you had the best hand?
 
Last edited:
Top