Originally Posted by Poker_Mike
Implied odds isn't about being a "calling station".
Implied odds is about getting your entire stack matched by the river.
If you are drawing and you get there and your opponent recognizes that he is beat and folds AND you weren't getting correct potodds to draw....then you win the hand but really it is a mistake that will cost you if you persist with that behavior.
Implied odds is something like, you know the villain is raising w AA or KK and you call with QT suited. You flop 2 pair and either bet into your opponent or check call and allow him to bet you allin at some point. You know he has a strong hand and will overplay it (not that I blame him but at some point what are you doing in the hand?).
Or your hand is otherwise disguised and you make the nuts and you predict that your opponent(s) will pay you handsomely.
The only way to really know if you will get implied odds is to double up (or more).
It doesn't always work. It's implied but NOT guaranteed....lol
Good luck !


Poker Mike and SouthParkSith
First of all, let me clarify that I was pertaining to post flop play. But of course it applies to preflop too.
Your in the big blind and there's a minraise and 4/5 callers after (I'm sure this is more relevant in a limit game) anyway it only costs you one bet to call getting 5/6 to one on your money.
My understanding is the pot odds dictates you call with almost any two cards in this situation because if your hand is good enough to win one out of 5 times or better long term your money ahead? Granted if you don't catch anything your not investing another dime in the pot.


Your understanding is correct! Those are expressed odds, or immediate odds you getting right now. And there are really 2 ways of looking at them like you said, example 1 raise, 3 callers, you are getting 4:1 (excluding you are big blind for now). So you can look at it as a ratio 4:1 or percentage: 1/5 (fraction) is 20%. You need a hand that has 20% equity to call (which is almost everything). If you ask which unit should you pick, the answer is you need to be good a converting both unfortunately, because lots odds are naturally easier for us to work out in ratios while poker calculators express hand equities in percentages haha.
There's also Reverse Implied Odds, Scubed mentioned, which is another story for another day. That usually applies to broadway cards like KQ, KJ, etc. when you hit 2nd best top pair, etc. It's the potential of losing
chips.
Anyway, SouthParksith, what you were showing are expressed odds, which is totally useless, except for one thing; you are facing an allin. Implied odds do not apply to an allin (well, unless posibillity of another all in call), because more chips in are no longer implied but you know the total already. That's the only area you use expressed odds. Because if you did, you'd have to fold most of your hands facing a raise or 3bet.
Implied Odds step in. Preflop, it's a lot more straight forward then post flop. Preflop you look at what is the effective stack (the potential to win if you hit), what is your opponents aggression and range, are you IP, and size of the raise. For example, low pocket pairs.....
You are Button with 55. UTG raised 3bbs with AA. Pot is 4.5bbs and 3 to you. 4.5/3, 1.5:1. Your hand has only 20% equity by the River against the Aces. 1 in 5 games. Your hand needs 4:1. Or your hand has 20% equity and you are required contribute 40% to the pot, which you can't, you'd need a hand that has 40% equity against the Aces. Which there is none, unless another pair of AA. Expressed odds say "You must fold!".
But hang on, you don't have to according to implied odds. You adjust your strategy to only see the Flop to see if you flop a set. Turn and River are out of question because you know he'll value betting and it's too dear to chase 2 outs.
The frequency to Flop a set is 12.5% or 8.5:1. Say 9:1. His raise was 3bbs. We need to get back at least 3x9=27 bbs from him to break even. We look at effective stack to see if the implied potential is there. He has 90bbs and we too. Also we know he will value bet!
Now, in reality, even though 9:1 is break even, different tutors recommend different reward to set mine. Some say you need at least 15:1, and some as high as 25:1. That's because not always you get the needed 9:1 or more. Sonetimes people just fold post flop and you don't get the payout, that's why you are aiming for more. Say 20:1. His raise 3bbx20 is 60bbs. We both have that! We can still go ahead. That's simplified theory is if he is 60BBs+ deep, you can go ahead. But imagine there was a 3bet to 9bbs. Now you have to multiple 9x20, which is 190bbs. It gets tricky! You can lower your multiplier in situations where there was a call to 3bet.
Similar goes for suited connectors, gappers, etc. You need to find out their frequencies to see what you can call. Surprisingly, High Broadways lose a bit of value (reverse implied odds) in deep stack poker and drawing hands gain value. Even though they don't hit often, when they do they stack and stack deep those AKs and AA, KK, QQ, etc. Conversely, drawing hands lose value in shallow stack poker like 40bbs or less, and you guessed it Late Stage Tournaments, and Broadways gain.
I don't know what
effective odds are. But this is preflop. It's a lot more straight forward. My question was to postflop, I should have specified, but I thought it was obvious from my hand example.
Poker_Mike
Implied odds is about getting your entire stack matched by the river.


I am sorry but I think you are overexaggerating here to be honest. Yes of course it's the ultimate goal, but there is a lot thinner value to be had and you can work out exactly what it is and isnt. And it seems to me that you just guess and don't actually know if you are meeting the minimums, because let's be frank they don't stack often at all. Interestingly QTs holds against AA same equity as low pocket pair 20%. To flop a flush draw we have 11%, flopping 2 pair is only 2%. We need him to have at least 8x times the bet, plus extra to complete are draw. Easily 10 times the raise. So if he raised preflop 3bbs and had less then 30bb behind him, then you'd have no business calling it in the first place, I'd be still looking to over 60bbs.
But in your example you flop Two Pair. Then you are already ahead. You just extract the preflop determined value. For example I want 15x times raise so, I want 45bbs. Pretty straightforward.
The problem here is—the core of my original post— that more money goes in the pot. If he checked it down to the River, all you need is to extract preflop determined value. That will never happen! You flopped a flush draw and you are around 35% underdog to the River, assuming he hasn't hit a Set, then you'd be less, around 25%. He bets 2/3 of the pot. So you are telling me that you must stack him to justify the call?
Pot is 7.5bb he bets 4bbs. To simplify we take our equity 35%. But we know he will bet the Turn as well. So we half it. Say 18%. Convert to ratio. 100/18 is 5.55. Convert it ratio 4.5:1. We need 4.5:1 to break even. But we are getting 1.9:1. Expressed odds is telling us "You need to fold! You are not getting the required price!" But implied odds saying hang on: "If you are able to get the 4.5:1 and more you will be fine!"
So, we check if we can get them. 4.5 multiple his bet is 18bbs. Pot already is 11.5bb (inc. his bet). We are short of 6.5 blinds, which is 1/3 of the pot on the Turn, piece of cake!
But say he bet twice the pot on the Flop. Pot 7.5bb, villain bets 15bb. Now we need 67.5bb  minus pot, 45bb. We need a lot more. Interestingly his case we would need to stack off on the River.