I'm not getting value and losing to much money. Help my leak!

Pokergambler11

Pokergambler11

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I've been seeing a lot micro stakes posts saying to "fat value" and just bet 1/2 to 2/3 pot or even pot value with two pairs maybe. The problem I am having is people folding to my "fat value" betting. It doesn't seem as glorious as they make it. I feel like I should be betting a little smaller against tighter players and betting bigger on loose people. The other problem also is if I fat value a player and I end up 2nd best then I just lost a lot of money. So my question is, should I moreso "value bet" my hands (this can be big bets against loose players also) instead of fat value play on EVERY hand.
I seem to go on huge swings and this is probably why? Today I was at $1 on table 1 $2.50 on table 2 and $1.90 on table 3. I ended profiting $0.22c but these swings are scary. I'd rather make small bets and small loses
 
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jsh169

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Try to do what is called value targeting. What does this mean? Put them on an estimated range and bet accordingly. If you think they have nothing and bet big, well don't expect a call. An example when to bet big is when you are targetting a second best hand for example you have ak on an AAxxx board, this is a spot where you hope villain has Ax and should bet big, if he doesn't he will likely fold, but not betting big here would be a critical mistake.
 
Pokergambler11

Pokergambler11

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Try to do what is called value targeting. What does this mean? Put them on an estimated range and bet accordingly. If you think they have nothing and bet big, well don't expect a call. An example when to bet big is when you are targetting a second best hand for example you have ak on an AAxxx board, this is a spot where you hope villain has Ax and should bet big, if he doesn't he will likely fold, but not betting big here would be a critical mistake.

I understand that. But when I fat value my TPTK that's when I have swings. Should I not fat value my TPTK and instead maybe make the pot small?
 
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jsh169

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This is board and villain dependent, but in a nutshell I would say yes. Swings in poker are inevitable.
 
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Jreece18

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Fat value doesn't mean bet bigger. It means play hands where you are a big favourite compared to their range (high equity) rather than getting involved in marginal hands. Betting small is giving opponents good odds to draw, letting them play close to perfect. Change bet sizing depending on how wet or dry the board is, I still rarely bet less than half pot.

If your opponents are folding too much to your bets post flop, punish them by cbetting often, don't lower the size. Pot bets are pretty large and I'd only recommend potting if you are playing against an inelastic fish who isn't paying attention to the size of your bets. What is your bb/100? It's likely that you have issues in other parts of your game. Leave bet sizing alone until you have improved other areas of your game imo.
 
Pokergambler11

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Fat value doesn't mean bet bigger. It means play hands where you are a big favourite compared to their range (high equity) rather than getting involved in marginal hands. Betting small is giving opponents good odds to draw, letting them play close to perfect. Change bet sizing depending on how wet or dry the board is, I still rarely bet less than half pot.

If your opponents are folding too much to your bets post flop, punish them by cbetting often, don't lower the size. Pot bets are pretty large and I'd only recommend potting if you are playing against an inelastic fish who isn't paying attention to the size of your bets. What is your bb/100? It's likely that you have issues in other parts of your game. Leave bet sizing alone until you have improved other areas of your game imo.

What if you have AK in your hand and bet 0.08c, 3 people call.
If you hit the Ace on a dry board would you still bet 0.16c?
Then, let's say, 2 of the people called trying to hit a draw. Now it's .80c, would you bet 0.40c? See how it just accumulates with only a TPTK? If they miss by the river and you bet half it'll be like .70c. But if you check the streets someone could easily steal the pot? I would feel comfortable just betting .10c on all streets
 
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Onkorunkus

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That would just be playing scared money and also super unbalanced.. everyone would know you have a mediocre hand they can get you off. Also, why would you want to give them even better odds to continue with their draws?
 
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Jreece18

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What onkorunkus said. That's playing scared and betting 10c on 3 streets is massively missing out on value. You're talking about fat value, but you're trying to limit the amount you can make because you're afraid you're beat?

The situation you gave is specific but has it actually happened? Play the way I said, value betting nut hands (rather than marginal - this is what fat value is) and post some hand histories in the subforum. 2nl is about learning, not about making money. Whilst you want to be in the green, it's better to learn how to play properly. If you get into situations such as triple barrelling TPTK against 3 opponents and you end up losing $2, the knowledge you'd gain from posting this in the forum would be +EV (from the experience gained) in comparison to playing weak poker just so you don't lose your stack. Hope that made sense.
 
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jsh169

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What if you have AK in your hand and bet 0.08c, 3 people call.
If you hit the Ace on a dry board would you still bet 0.16c?
Then, let's say, 2 of the people called trying to hit a draw. Now it's .80c, would you bet 0.40c? See how it just accumulates with only a TPTK? If they miss by the river and you bet half it'll be like .70c. But if you check the streets someone could easily steal the pot? I would feel comfortable just betting .10c on all streets


Well with this mentality plan at staying at 2nl forever, you would be as see through as day. 10c on every street is a sure way to lose the pot. Your pricing people in to beat you and then you also would never know if their toying you and as you said your capped where they wouldn't be, so just a complete disaster.
 
mbrenneman0

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Use your table image.

Keep doing what you're doing. when they fold, that's free money. Eventually, they'll start to think that if you don't raise, you don't have a good hand. So after betting aggressively for awhile, throw in a slowplay.. chances are, unless they're stupid, they'll bet when you don't. Check/call, check/call, raise (gotta have a good hand though of course, tptk isn't as good of a hand as you seem to think. Of course it depends on the board and the odds that the opponent has hand that beats yours... Look up reverse implied odds on pokerbank)
 
PokerGrinder

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They will not fold draws in micro stakes. Make them pay big for their draws.
 
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What if you have AK in your hand and bet 0.08c, 3 people call.
If you hit the Ace on a dry board would you still bet 0.16c?
Then, let's say, 2 of the people called trying to hit a draw. Now it's .80c, would you bet 0.40c? See how it just accumulates with only a TPTK? If they miss by the river and you bet half it'll be like .70c. But if you check the streets someone could easily steal the pot? I would feel comfortable just betting .10c on all streets

Honestly, the way a player plays preflop is very indicative of the way he plays postflop. If you raise to 8c preflop and get 3 callers, then chances are, you're on a table full of loose passive fish. The way to exploit this is by value betting hard and letting them pay you off with TPGK and TPBK hands, as well as sticky draws that they want to chase. Also assume that they're not going to bluff you very often.

So in your example, you claim that you raise to 8c with AKo and get 3 callers. Perhaps this is the kind of table you want to be raising bigger with AKo then? I know in live poker, making a 4bb opening raise with AKo just isn't sufficient.

But anyway, you're now in a spot where there's 32 cents in the pot, so you're going to bet about 20c on the flop. Let's say 2 players call your 20c bet. Now there's 72 cents in the pot. From here, I would just have a bet/fold mentality against these passive fish. Bet 55 cents on the turn and if anyone raises, just fold. On the river, plan to check/fold unless they make a very small bet. Remember that passive fish don't bluff very often, especially at 2NL.

It would be better if I had the exact hand history and knew exactly what the board texture looked like, what position everyone was in and what everyone's stack sizes were, but this is just general advice about value betting at 2NL without over-valuing TPTK.
 
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They will not fold draws in micro stakes. Make them pay big for their draws.

This is gold right here. It's bizarre what some people will chase. And yes betting big value on their draws means you WILL lose more when they hit but the times they draw and miss on your big value bets will more than cover those loses. It's hard to pull the trigger sometimes on betting big knowing you can and will lose sometimes but you've got to give them bad odds to keep drawing if you think they are.

That said on wet boards (2 to a flush, open ended st8 draws) lately I bet AT LEAST 3/4 pot to full pot. If they're super nitty I might be a little under 1/2 pot since most nits want close to 4:1 on their draws and I'm giving them slightly worse which might tempt them. But only if I know for sure. Most time lately I bet full pot if action is to me and they aren't raising me. I take it down or they call with their draw.

On dry boards (unconnected , rainbow) I used to trap and small bet but again no one folds if it's cheap so I've donked myself doing that. So I tend to bet least half pot or more. If I flop a monster and they called a raise pre or raised me pre i;ll check raise them each street. But only if i KNOW they'll try to bet me off.

On paired boards and boards with a high card above what I'm holding I'm cautious and want to see where I'm at. if they check it to me I'll bet little more than half pot usually and see, if they raise me I'm usually beat, if they flat call they're drawing or not sure. Occasionally they're trapping me with a made set, trips, or FH, so if they just causally call me down to river i might check river, expect the shove and fold.

Basically never give out free cards at the micros. Unless you have the nuts and know they'll bet into you. Or you know they're drawing and you can raise their aggression to your benefit.

Not proven to work for me yet but has greatly improved my game. And yes I think the swings will be more with betting to give them worse odds, I've lost massively ahead and betting hard to people who need a 2 outer and get it. Put me in that same spot a ton of times and I'm raking it in over the long haul. But expect swings because those outs WILL come and beat you.
 
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I've been seeing a lot micro stakes posts saying to "fat value" and just bet 1/2 to 2/3 pot or even pot value with two pairs maybe. The problem I am having is people folding to my "fat value" betting. It doesn't seem as glorious as they make it. I feel like I should be betting a little smaller against tighter players and betting bigger on loose people. The other problem also is if I fat value a player and I end up 2nd best then I just lost a lot of money. So my question is, should I moreso "value bet" my hands (this can be big bets against loose players also) instead of fat value play on EVERY hand.
I seem to go on huge swings and this is probably why? Today I was at $1 on table 1 $2.50 on table 2 and $1.90 on table 3. I ended profiting $0.22c but these swings are scary. I'd rather make small bets and small loses

WTF ??? you are talking about a 22 cent profit..and then claim those swings are scary ?

if 22 cents is scary to you, then maybe you should not be gambling ? Serious dude.
 
TimovieMan

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WTF ??? you are talking about a 22 cent profit..and then claim those swings are scary ?

if 22 cents is scary to you, then maybe you should not be gambling ? Serious dude.
Not everyone is rolled for high stakes and the swings in BB can be scary at all levels, whether or not that's 0.02$ or 4$ per BB.

OP is here to obviously improve his game. Not to be mocked for playing in the micros. Don't be a dick.
 
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Rumme1

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Not everyone is rolled for high stakes and the swings in BB can be scary at all levels, whether or not that's 0.02$ or 4$ per BB.

OP is here to obviously improve his game. Not to be mocked for playing in the micros. Don't be a dick.

IMHO..anyone that is scared of 2 cent big blinds and 22 cent losses in poker, should probably reconsider finding another hobby because it is a sign they cant afford to play poker. Such advice, is sound advice, and has nothing to do with being " dick" . Besides, its almost impossible to significantly improve ones poker game to the point of making decent profits, playing in 2 cent games because a person will never win big money in such a game, nor will they learn most of the skills needed to do better in the higher limit games because a 2 cent game and a $5 game have very little in common as far as bluffs, bets and player behaviors at the table.

My suggestion still stands for the O.P....if 2 cent blinds is scary to him and 22 cent swings give him a upset stomach, then it may be best for him to just play freerolls until he has a bankroll of more then $1.39 or maybe its best for them to find a new passtime. Let me put it another way.

PLAYING WITH SCARED MONEY IN ANY POKER GAME, IS ALWAYS A SCENARIO TO BE A LOSER IN POKER.

Playing in any poker game that is above your comfortable levels / bankroll, is also a scenario to be a loser in poker. ..and evidently the O.P. does not want to be a loser in poker, which is why he started this thread .
 
TimovieMan

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My suggestion still stands for the O.P....if 2 cent blinds is scary to him and 22 cent swings give him a upset stomach, then it may be best for him to just play freerolls until he has a bankroll of more then $1.39 or maybe its best for them to find a new passtime. Let me put it another way.

PLAYING WITH SCARED MONEY IN ANY POKER GAME, IS ALWAYS A SCENARIO TO BE A LOSER IN POKER.
The way I interpret the OP is NOT that he's playing with scared money, but that he's uncomfortable risking large chunks of his buy-in on mediocre hands.
Basically he seems to want to "protect his stack" instead of using it - an understandable beginner viewpoint. But I don't think that this has anything to do with the actual amount.


Heck, I occasionally get more uncomfortable shoving 1$ at NL2 than I ever did in my limit days at 5/10$ where a single BB equalled 5 BIs now. It's not always about the amount of money on the table.
 
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Rumme1

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The way I interpret the OP is NOT that he's playing with scared money, but that he's uncomfortable risking large chunks of his buy-in on mediocre hands.
Basically he seems to want to "protect his stack" instead of using it - an understandable beginner viewpoint. But I don't think that this has anything to do with the actual amount.


Heck, I occasionally get more uncomfortable shoving 1$ at NL2 than I ever did in my limit days at 5/10$ where a single BB equalled 5 BIs now. It's not always about the amount of money on the table.

everyone has a different opinion. mine is that any person that is uncomfortable or scared of 2 cent blinds or 22 cent losses in poker, probably needs to :

1. wait until they have a larger bankroll and can feel more comfortable playing poker { at whatever stakes they choose}

2. maybe find a new hobby that one can afford and not feel pressured monetarily.

IMHO, the OP is playing with scared money and extremely limited funds. Anyone that has played poker for decades and beat the game, will tell you this is not a good scenario to put oneself in. My advice is not being dikheaded, it is being brutally honest and level headed.

Furthermore, the OP admits that he is scared by the 22 cent swings he is witnessing...that is a sign of a person playing with SCARED MONEY. Reread his first post that started this thread. I am only repeating what he said.
 
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Poker isn't about seeing someone else do something and trying that same thing out (in general). It's very situational. Try getting caught with a small bluff for everyone to see, then try value betting like you're doing. Much more likely to get a follower. You have to know your opponents first.
 
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I seem to go on huge swings and this is probably why? Today I was at $1 on table 1 $2.50 on table 2 and $1.90 on table 3. I ended profiting $0.22c but these swings are scary. I'd rather make small bets and small loses


Sorry I know I'm very late to the party but I had a third point of view I thought I should add. First, I agree with both of you

1- to welcome new members no matter where they are coming from as long as they want to improve
2- playing scared money and not recognizing variance is simply setting yourself to get pushed around, tilt or lose big.

But from reading OP post I think he meant he encountered high and low swings on all 3 tables, maybe went BI or 2 under or whatever but was able to end the session with a 22 cent profit. All of this was using the new agro strategy that he is not comfortable with atm. So he is just confused and need your help with the strategy/play for 2NL.

OP I would like to know if you use any HUD/tracking software? I believe that is not an option anymore in today's online games and has been my light in the dark. I ask bc by reading your post I get the feeling that you are not using one.
 
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I'm going to go on a bit of a tangent here, but I feel the need to address this sentence here:

If they're super nitty I might be a little under 1/2 pot since most nits want close to 4:1 on their draws and I'm giving them slightly worse which might tempt them.

Do you ever think that anyone is folding a flush draw on the turn for 1/2 pot? Even a nit or thinking reg won't fold for that price, and here's why:

When you bet 1/2 pot on the turn, you're giving the villain 3:1 pot odds on a call. That is: if there's x dollars in the pot, then they would be calling x/2 more dollars to win a total pot of 2x dollars. Now, flush draws on the turn require 4:1 pot odds to make them break-even calls, so it appears that they're not getting the odds to call, however, you need to factor in implied odds.

The reason for calling a 1/2 pot bet on the turn is that they believe they can extract more value from you on the river if their draw hits. And I don't think that this is an unreasonable assumption to make, most of the time. Let's say you have TPTK and that third spade hits on the river. You're probably not going to want to stack off completely, however, you're probably willing to call about another 1/2 pot bet, especially if there were multiple draws out there and only one of them hit. So if there's now 2x dollars in the pot and they bet x dollars, you'll call and they'll win a 4x dollar pot. So all in all, by putting x/2 dollars at risk on the turn, they were able to get back 3x dollars, which gave them 5:1 implied odds, despite only getting 3:1 direct pot odds.

Long story short, you have to think about the implied odds you're giving them, not just the pot odds. Even a nit isn't folding a flush draw on the turn to a 1/2 pot bet, provided you have some stack depth behind. I'll typically bet around 80-90% of the pot on the turn if it's a 2-tone board and I have top pair. Many people (I'd even go so far as to say that the majority of micro stakes players) will overestimate their implied odds and call this.
 
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Brian11580

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it seems to me even though AA is a fav 85 percent of the time, seems like they get beat alot JMO
 
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SteaknEggz

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adjust your bets according to table flow. always think "when i bet this what will he put me on?" "if he calls what can i put him on?"
 
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dejan85

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you should have discipline in game no matter you lose or win and always have your own style
 
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