If you play JJ, QQ, 10,10 like this, your playing them wrong.

#1 9th May 2008, 6:12 PM

I'm a live cash game player and have a little venting to do. It might help some of you, and people are welcome to disagree.

I see lots of tournament regulars make the same play with Queens, Jacks and Tens in a cash game. Well be sitting 2/5 or 5/10 and a player that regularly makes it 3 or 4x to go will suddenly push 10x+ or all in pre-flop. Its a tell tale sign of a poor player, playing one of these three hands.

Its a terrible play because of the possible outcomes after going all in, or being re-raised. A super strong push like this is inviting Kings or Aces to call or re-raise all in, and puts the player with the QQ, JJ, or 1010 in a terrible spot. Nothing else is going to call you. The times you pick up the 15 or 7 dollars worth of blinds will not make up for the times you are called and get felted.

Don't be scared of these hands, they are quality hands, but you don't want to be asking for a better hand to call you. Going all in, or making huge raises is only putting your chip stack in danger in cash games. Its a bad play, and not worth it.

#2 9th May 2008, 6:24 PM

I agree that is a very poor way to play these hands but I might have some insight as to whay it happens. You commented that it's a sign
of a poor player and again I have to agree.

It only takes a few times of getting your QQ, JJ, or 10 10 busted by raising a 3X or 4X BB and haivng an overcard hit that people panic with these hands and would rather take all the skill out of the hand and play bingo with them.

Players would do better to realize that while these are great starting hands they are not invincible and isn't it better to make a standard raise to entice a caller with out risking your whole stack? Be prepared to dump them if overcards hit when you're called and save your bankroll some damage. Post flop play is where you make your money and requires some skill to be really successful, many new or poor players aren't comfortable with that and would rather shove and cross their fingers.

#3 9th May 2008, 6:42 PM

wow gg live players

#4 9th May 2008, 7:05 PM

I wish live multitabling was possible

#5 9th May 2008, 7:08 PM

Originally Posted by ChuckTs

I wish live multitabling was possible

if it was i would not play online

#6 10th May 2008, 2:31 PM

Originally Posted by ChuckTs

I wish live multitabling was possible

Put two tables together and sit in the middle of them

#7 10th May 2008, 2:54 PM

lol you guys are funny, but i feel its bad to push all in with any hand in cash games but thats just the way i play them.

#8 10th May 2008, 3:03 PM

Originally Posted by ttowns

lol you guys are funny, but i feel its bad to push all in with any hand in cash games but thats just the way i play them.

are you serious?

WHAT IS GOING ON IN THIS THREAD

#9 10th May 2008, 3:10 PM

Originally Posted by ChuckTs

I wish live multitabling was possible

lol they do it in chess, why not poker?

#10 10th May 2008, 3:23 PM

i meant pre flop

#11 10th May 2008, 3:28 PM

here's another vote for live multitabling.

oh the possibilities that would open up....

I'm tempted to try it next time I'm near a casino. Get two tables close enough together and why not?

/probably not allowed, would be fun to try once

#12 10th May 2008, 3:57 PM

Its bad etiquette.

Some people try to do it. Whats more common is they will try to play a sit n go while playing a cash game. Its not fair to the guys playing the cash games to have a seat without a player for that amount of time. Even if you try to play two cash games you will miss a lot of hands and the people will get upset. You just got to make sure the casino you play at has automatic shufflers, they let you see a lot more hands.

#13 11th May 2008, 4:29 PM

yes that is the wrong play to do i usually can pick out donks like that.

#14 12th May 2008, 2:00 AM

Originally Posted by zachvac

lol they do it in chess, why not poker?

The tables are too big

#15 12th May 2008, 8:21 AM

I don't see how they're playing it wrong if they're doing everything they're allowed to. Its not like they're breaking any rules or anything, right? If thats how they wish to play, then so be it but there is nothing wrong about it. Thats like saying someone who raises every hand PF is playing wrong.

#16 12th May 2008, 10:58 AM

Well got to agree that its not something I would do often (maybe short stacked) but I have seen it happen alot. Its almost a bad as the all in cos Ax hit an ace on the flop. But then again Philthy also makes a valid point...IT AINT AGAINST THE RULES!!!!

#17 13th May 2008, 1:16 PM

I don't think that whether or not it was against the rules was what was meant by the OP saying it was wrong. He was talking from the viewpoint of optimal poker strategy. Yes you are allowed to do this but is it the correct play? Maybe if he had used the word incorrect instead of wrong it would have been clearer.

#18 13th May 2008, 3:51 PM

Originally Posted by white_lytning

Nothing else is going to call you.

[ ] is true in a live game

#19 13th May 2008, 4:31 PM

Who was it who mentioned that folks don't go somewhere to play poker to fold?

Live poker multi-tabling. I'm seeing a smörgåsbord type thing. Lol, lines of players walking to their elevated tables like lemmings to a net......

#20 13th May 2008, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by dj11

Live poker multi-tabling. I'm seeing a smörgåsbord type thing. Lol, lines of players walking to their elevated tables like lemmings to a net......

wat

#21 14th May 2008, 1:52 AM

One thing that's very important to understand. You should only care what your opponent's ROI is to the extent that it helps you put him on a range of hands.

Players can (and will) make every strange move that's allowed within the rules. The majority of them are long-term losing players who make bad decisions. That's their business, and bless 'em, because they make it possible for us to win.

They also liven up a table. There's nothing more boring than playing at a full table where everyone's playing ABC poker.

#22 14th May 2008, 2:03 AM

Great point, OP, and a very valid observation; however, rather than being mad about it, use it to your advantage! (Some players are always gonna play like that. . . .)

As to the rest of you (whoever started the whole "live-multitabling" thing), I have this to say:

#23 14th May 2008, 2:32 AM

isnt 10x pfr standard live cash? at 1/2 it is.

and lol thats even 2/5 and 5/10 ur saying, bwahaha awesome I cant wait till im 21 to check vegas out

#24 15th May 2008, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by white_lytning

I'm a live cash game player and have a little venting to do. It might help some of you, and people are welcome to disagree.

I see lots of tournament regulars make the same play with Queens, Jacks and Tens in a cash game. Well be sitting 2/5 or 5/10 and a player that regularly makes it 3 or 4x to go will suddenly push 10x+ or all in pre-flop. Its a tell tale sign of a poor player, playing one of these three hands.

Its a terrible play because of the possible outcomes after going all in, or being re-raised. A super strong push like this is inviting Kings or Aces to call or re-raise all in, and puts the player with the QQ, JJ, or 1010 in a terrible spot. Nothing else is going to call you. The times you pick up the 15 or 7 dollars worth of blinds will not make up for the times you are called and get felted.

Don't be scared of these hands, they are quality hands, but you don't want to be asking for a better hand to call you. Going all in, or making huge raises is only putting your chip stack in danger in cash games. Its a bad play, and not worth it.

I agree with this.

I played QQ and JJ bad a lot of times, I think with theese 2 hands are more the times I lost than the times I won

#25 15th May 2008, 8:25 PM

Sorry, but if your stack is only 10xbb then shoving w QQ is absolutely correct no matter who opened for the initial raise, or if you are opening first yourself, or moving in on the flop no matter what comes. Yes, in a cash game too. Are you going to raise to 3-4x bb, then fold to a reraise when you only have 6-7x back?

#26 15th May 2008, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by aliengenius

Sorry, but if your stack is only 10xbb then shoving w QQ is absolutely correct no matter who opened for the initial raise, or if you are opening first yourself, or moving in on the flop no matter what comes. Yes, in a cash game too. Are you going to raise to 3-4x bb, then fold to a reraise when you only have 6-7x back?

True, But my OP wasn't about being short stacked. If you only have 10x the BB in a 2/5 or 5/10 game you are in trouble to start and your chip stack allows the all-in pf move to work for a lot more hands.

I mentioned the 10x raise because it is also a play made by a lot of players with these types of hands, its a basic strong means weak play and is easily readable and dealt with by a good player. If the player has been making 3-5x raises for the past 2 hours and then makes a 10x raise, most of the time something is up. For the weak player this big bet is a sign of weakness and fear. A good player will call you with a wide variety of hands if they can put you on one of those three for a 10x to go bet. They can try to make a play before or after the flop based on what hits.

And philthy, I'm pretty sure most people understood what I meant when I said "wrong." Sorry if my diction was not perfect.

#27 18th May 2008, 9:24 PM

I prefer seeing flops with these hands.

#28 20th May 2008, 1:44 PM

Originally Posted by GoodWoodRR

I prefer seeing flops with these hands.

worst thing you could do, giving your opponent free cards to beat you

#29 21st May 2008, 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by smokin-aces

worst thing you could do, giving your opponent free cards to beat you

After having a run of getting knocked out of several tournies in a row with QQ
I have to agree these hands are not for all-in preflop, I wouldn't limp either, I'm thinking min raise and take it from there.

#30 21st May 2008, 11:49 PM

Poor players? OR, SMART players?? I wouldn't push 10xs BB OR push ALL IN EVERY time I got QQ, JJ, 1010 OR 99 OR any pocket pair!! (Or would I?) The trick to playing QUALITY Poker, I think, is to KEEP YOUR OPPONENT GUESSING! I may, or may not push w/Qs--Definatly NOT EVERY TIME! Maybe just every other time, OR every third time, OR every 6th time, OR NEVER!!! Get it????

#31 22nd May 2008, 12:38 AM

Wow I just want to say I really appreciate this advice, I'm a tournament player that has a hard time transitioning to cash games, and those are very large trouble hands for me. My problem is knowing when to lay down AA, is it possible? I'm talking post flop with a rainbow board and no pairs on the board. my AA seems to get beat out by 2 pair and trips on these flops wayyy too often.

#32 22nd May 2008, 5:11 AM

Originally Posted by rindhoops

After having a run of getting knocked out of several tournies in a row with QQ
I have to agree these hands are not for all-in preflop, I wouldn't limp either, I'm thinking min raise and take it from there.

i didnt say shove i said the worst thing you could do is give your opponents free cards to beat you dont know how you think thats the same thing , but seriously pf min raise is a horrible play with QQ, maybe if your trapping its slightly less horrible, but definetly a horrible standard play that will be a huge leak in your game, i suggest you stop doing this asap

#33 22nd May 2008, 5:36 AM

Originally Posted by Bobmurphy07

My problem is knowing when to lay down AA, is it possible? I'm talking post flop with a rainbow board and no pairs on the board. my AA seems to get beat out by 2 pair and trips on these flops wayyy too often.

This demonstrates the importance of a strong but reasonable pre-flop raise. The fewer opponents you have going into the flop the less likely you are to get busted with off hands.

Always be thinking about what your opponent might have to call your pre-flop raise. if the flop comes 6s 2d 9c I wouldn't be to concerned about two pair. I would be more concerned with him flopping a set. There's really nothing you can do to prevent an opponent from flopping a set, and it's nearly impossible to get him to lay it down.

If the flop comes Ks 9s Td, then I would be much more concerned. I would be more than willing to lay down my A's if my opponent raises my continuation bet, or pushes all in.

Now matter how pretty they are sitting next to each other, Ace's aren't worth dying for.

#34 22nd May 2008, 8:48 AM

Try raising 3x to 4x in a 1/2 live cash game. Then watch seven calls ensue.

#35 22nd May 2008, 8:46 PM

when you are putting money in the pot as a > 1/n favorite where n is the number of players to the flop, tend to get as much money into the pot as possible in cash games

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If you play JJ, QQ, 10,10 like this, your playing them wrong.

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