I really need help with facing 3 bets.

Thinker_145

Thinker_145

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Total posts
848
Awards
1
Chips
1
So I have been playing 50NL again after a long time and I am doing better this time but I still find it so frustrating how much 3 betting happens. Now I did try a 4 bet bluff a couple of times and it worked but that can only work so many times. Also isn't it kinda bad to fold after a 4 bet bluff with only a 100BB stack?

Here is an example of a hand where I just got lucky. I just called out of frustration that am I now supposed to not even steal with this hand or am I just supposed to let it go after such a wide range of 3 betting? The villain in question is 3 betting 14% from the SB/BB when facing a BTN open.

iPoker - €0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 129.06 BB (VPIP: 23.61, PFR: 17.13, 3Bet Preflop: 5.92, hands: 20,878)
CO: 141.42 BB (VPIP: 25.96, PFR: 20.03, 3Bet Preflop: 6.74, Hands: 1,261)
Hero (BTN): 103.02 BB
SB: 97.84 BB (VPIP: 28.78, PFR: 21.99, 3Bet Preflop: 8.48, Hands: 16,187)
BB: 39 BB (VPIP: 31.43, PFR: 2.86, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 35)
UTG: 106.94 BB (VPIP: 22.55, PFR: 19.23, 3Bet Preflop: 7.94, Hands: 4,339)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 9:spade: 8:spade:

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 2 BB, SB raises to 8 BB, fold, Hero calls 6 BB

Flop: (17 BB, 2 players) K:heart: 5:club: 6:diamond:
SB bets 6 BB, Hero calls 6 BB

Turn: (29 BB, 2 players) 7:club:
SB bets 14.5 BB, Hero calls 14.5 BB

River: (58 BB, 2 players) K:spade:
SB checks, Hero bets 34.8 BB, SB calls 34.8 BB

Hero shows 9:spade: 8:spade: (Straight, Nine High)
(Pre 33%, Flop 16%, Turn 77%)
SB shows K:club: 8:club: (Three of a Kind, Kings)
(Pre 67%, Flop 84%, Turn 23%)
Hero wins 121.6 BB

So you can see either I am being exploited or the villain is just crazy I mean K8s?? I honestly didn't have much of a plan in this hand and just wanted to "play some poker" as they say. But I think I would really like to have something more comfortable. Frustration has lead to my demise in 50NL previously and I really don't want an epic meltdown again.

Now I am following a GTO chart given by a user sometime ago on when you should just commit yourself facing 3 bets. However that only has so many hands. I feel some players are certainly 3 betting me more than their actual stat but there is no way to know that in PT4 which sucks.

Now most of the times when I do 4 bet I get a fold from a reg but that's because I only 4 bet actual hands. I don't think I really want to regularly get into 4 bet bluffs as that would have brutal variance.

I was thinking perhaps I should stop 4 betting entirely so it becomes fairly difficult to play me post flop in a 3 bet pot? I would of course still 4 bet if fish are left to act but in other spots I think this could be a good strategy to protect my weak calls from getting blown away by aggression on later streets. Rarely have I seen someone trying to get cute in 4 bet pots or at least not against me.

So ultimately what plan there is to deal with the sort of play in the above hand?
 
D

Dwarf

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 19, 2016
Total posts
245
Chips
0
It looks like you took a slightly unfavorable call on the flop and turned the monkey nuts.

The villain checks on the turn, making the potential boat on the river less scary. (He probably thought you had a higher K)

89s is very playable post flop, as you can see.

Calling the 3bet from villain was fine. After now that you can consider his holdings, it looks like he wants to defend his blinds.

I wouldn't default call 3bets from the big blind on my Button open with 89s but when opponents are trying to defend their blinds a lot. NP.

To address 4 bet bluffing, I also don't do it much, I have noticed that my 4 bets get folded more than they get called though. The only problem with 4 bet bluffing I see is - You are pretty much going to have to barrel again afterwards into a big pot. That is part of the image of someone who 4 bets a pot.
 
Last edited:
Zeimar Silva

Zeimar Silva

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 30, 2016
Total posts
65
Chips
0
It seems that the villager was tilt or he had some reading that made him think that you were bluffing and paid the allin.
 
Thinker_145

Thinker_145

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Total posts
848
Awards
1
Chips
1
It seems that the villager was tilt or he had some reading that made him think that you were bluffing and paid the allin.
It wasn't an all in. The way the hand played he probably has to call the river.
 
W

Weee3eee

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 15, 2011
Total posts
127
Chips
0
As a button raiser, it's profitable to three bet from the blinds regardless of his holding. He still has a passive bb left to act that apparently he didn't want in the pot for that may have been his reason of his initial 3 bet.

With that alone and a good floppable 89s holdings, your call is fine. If you call after his 3bet, he will most likely lead there OP since he is the betting lead especially if he hits TP with a weak kicker.

Given the fact you have position on him and he 3bets and only has a passive player left to act, it tells me that he is weak and at the deep bottom of range. He would have called your bet hoping to let the bb in. This very tell would have been a sign to 4bet bluff this very spot. You would not do this very often but I believe your equity in this scenario would have come out to be profitable to 4 bet this Pre.
 
B

BanOne28

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Jan 17, 2017
Total posts
13
Chips
0
Personally, calling a sizeable 2bet with 98s in a 6-max would be a no-no. However, with additional player info and superior post flop play, it could definitely be a profitable call, especially considering how wide the villains are defending their blinds.
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
5,781
Chips
0
pre/flop is fine. If opponent is OOP and wants to bet so low on the flop so be it.

His bet on the flop could mean 2 things. Either he's trying to lure you in a trap or he's generally scared of that K and has like medium pairs or missed and just trying to win the pot cheaply.

Turn is the real issue... we get the nuts.
When SB leads into us after us calling on the flop, now he has to have something and is saying he isn't going anywhere. So we should raise here for value because we know he bet flop and lead into us he should have at least Kx or even a flush draw and if that's the case our raise should be even more important because once he misses flush he wont give us anymore chips on the river and that's how we will make our money off that hand.

if he leads into us on the river, we shove ... he isn't going away and if he's got K8 he's really bad and will be sticky here. And normal regs etc will have AK here a lot or even AA


So yeah in summary.
Raise turn
And practice hand reading, perhaps spectate some tables and try and put people on hands. Especially in Blind vs Button battles.
 
B

braveslice

Pull-ups!
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Total posts
1,988
Chips
0
I don't get it @Thinker, are you saying you advanced to NL50 before you had to learn the basics of 4bet bluffing?
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
5,781
Chips
0
I don't get it @Thinker, are you saying you advanced to NL50 before you had to learn the basics of 4bet bluffing?


You have to remember poker is different for everyone. He has been in the game for years but perhaps feels this is a weakness and often we go searching for leaks in our game becausw they appear overtime.

Also people cant play proper poker for pennies or at micros so they go where they respect money and learn there. Theres no wrong or right but if he learns 50nl sametime u learn 5 or 10nl who is better off?
 
B

braveslice

Pull-ups!
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Total posts
1,988
Chips
0
@Aces just hoping that NL25/50 is much easier than I thought :D!! Also hmm I was supposed to say light 3betting :p

For @Thinker, just a suggestion, read first opening ranges with 3betting included. Probably something like poker 3bet ranges pre

Also watch some youtube, for example
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
5,781
Chips
0
@Aces just hoping that NL25/50 is much easier than I thought :D!! Also hmm I was supposed to say light 3betting :p

For @Thinker, just a suggestion, read first opening ranges with 3betting included. Probably something like poker 3bet ranges pre

Also watch some youtube, for example The Ultimate Guide to Three-Betting Ranges - YouTube


Depends how you deal with money on the table. The experiece and knowledge you possess on the climb will help. And remember you dont need to be the best at the table to win at it :)
 
IPlay

IPlay

Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Total posts
2,593
Chips
0
I feel some players are certainly 3 betting me more than their actual stat but there is no way to know that in PT4 which sucks.

https://www.pokertracker.com/custom/notetracker

Go to this link, search for 3bet (NO SPACE!!) 3rd result down is a download link so you can add the amount of times a Villain has 3Bet hero from any position. It only gives you a number and no percentages but it is interesting to see and certain players will definitely stand out here.

As for never 4 bet bluffing, this is pretty bad and IDK how you made it that far without implementing it into your game. Regs must have a field day 3 betting you constantly. Do some homework and construct a 4 betting range vs SB 3 bets and since most regs 3 bet about 10% from the SB you can actually 4 bet bluff somewhat often, especially with what I imagine your image is. Against a 10% 3 bet we should 4 bet JJ+, AK for value(Never folding to a shove.). Flat AQ, 88-1010, KQs, 98s, T9s(IP). Now for 4 bet bluffs I like to use hands like A3-A5s, AJo(always folding to a shove.). FWIW I cut off my flatting of connectors at 98s because that is when your equity starts dropping by a few % with each lower connector, 87s, 76s etc.

So now we are 4 betting 40 combos for value, 20 combos as a bluff and flatting 38 combos so our range is pretty hard to play against. Now we just need to adjust these ranges vs villains depending on their 3 bet from SB stat and some villains we can cut out bluffs all together, some villains maybe we need more bluffs because they 3 bet 12% so we add in KQo and so on.
 
57noona

57noona

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Jan 16, 2017
Total posts
1,832
Awards
2
US
Chips
13
It looks like a case where you were just unlucky. Why the Hero played past the flop is beyond me? He sucked out with a 7 and got paid on the river when you made trips. I hope this stuff doesn't happen to you often?
 
B

braveslice

Pull-ups!
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Total posts
1,988
Chips
0
since most regs 3 bet about 10% from the SB you can actually 4 bet bluff somewhat often, especially with what I imagine your image is. Against a 10% 3 bet we should 4 bet JJ+, AK for value(Never folding to a shove.). Flat AQ, 88-1010, KQs, 98s, T9s(IP). Now for 4 bet bluffs I like to use hands like A3-A5s, AJo(always folding to a shove.). FWIW I cut off my flatting of connectors at 98s because that is when your equity starts dropping by a few % with each lower connector, 87s, 76s etc.

So now we are 4 betting 40 combos for value, 20 combos as a bluff and flatting 38 combos so our range is pretty hard to play against. Now we just need to adjust these ranges vs villains depending on their 3 bet from SB stat and some villains we can cut out bluffs all together, some villains maybe we need more bluffs because they 3 bet 12% so we add in KQo and so on.

This agrees a lot with what Mike Gano is suggesting in position, 4bet AI range is same 3%, for bluffs he prefers Axs, and Kxs 3%. He is though keeping bluff and value range equal in combos. I just don't understand how we decide our whole defense range here. It seems you defend 75% vs his attack range? Oh this has to come from denying auto profit 70% against 3bets. 5% extra comes because we can; because the position?

Also Gano having same bluff and AI combo count comes from the fact his style is game optimal, buy yours is more exploitable style? At first instinct though having position means we can actually have quite wide calling range, even to the extremes that we can’t do big mistake here by having no bluff 4bet range at all.
 
IPlay

IPlay

Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Total posts
2,593
Chips
0
I'm not sure who you are talking about but I am sure he is a better player that plays higher stakes so balance is more important :p. I'm playing 25NL and lower so having an equal value/bluff ratio for 4 betting probably isn't needed and may even be a leak although I am not sure. I do adjust to certain villains and may 4 bet bluff closer to an equal ratio but those are pretty much 3 bet monkeys. What site do you play on Brave?
 
W

Weee3eee

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 15, 2011
Total posts
127
Chips
0
I will say that the aggressive style is always going to be there. I would suggest adding the cbet flop and cbet turn stat. There are many instances that 3bet in position is more kind of normal. The 4 bet is interesting stat to look at too. Many who 3 bet expect folds if they have a high VPIP /PFR range. So pay close to their 4 bet fold stat as well.
 
John A

John A

Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Total posts
6,492
Awards
3
Chips
37
Did you read my section on 3-betting and 4-bet bluffing in polished poker by chance?

I think it's a pretty clear cut strategy that works. It's just another part of playing really good pre-flop strategy. Once you figure out the pattern and formula, it's pretty easy. I'd suggest you give it a peek if you haven't, or maybe re-visit if you have. I'm always open for questions.
 
kenzohim

kenzohim

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 6, 2014
Total posts
329
Chips
0
he think u are bluffing try to steal pot so re raise u .no matter he Flop top pair or not he still c bet.
Turn give him flush draw n think his king still
Good so fire again


So I have been playing 50NL again after a long time and I am doing better this time but I still find it so frustrating how much 3 betting happens. Now I did try a 4 bet bluff a couple of times and it worked but that can only work so many times. Also isn't it kinda bad to fold after a 4 bet bluff with only a 100BB stack?

Here is an example of a hand where I just got lucky. I just called out of frustration that am I now supposed to not even steal with this hand or am I just supposed to let it go after such a wide range of 3 betting? The villain in question is 3 betting 14% from the SB/BB when facing a BTN open.

iPoker - €0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 129.06 BB (VPIP: 23.61, PFR: 17.13, 3Bet Preflop: 5.92, Hands: 20,878)
CO: 141.42 BB (VPIP: 25.96, PFR: 20.03, 3Bet Preflop: 6.74, Hands: 1,261)
Hero (BTN): 103.02 BB
SB: 97.84 BB (VPIP: 28.78, PFR: 21.99, 3Bet Preflop: 8.48, Hands: 16,187)
BB: 39 BB (VPIP: 31.43, PFR: 2.86, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 35)
UTG: 106.94 BB (VPIP: 22.55, PFR: 19.23, 3Bet Preflop: 7.94, Hands: 4,339)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 9<font color='black'>♠</font> 8<font color='black'>♠</font>

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 2 BB, SB raises to 8 BB, fold, Hero calls 6 BB

Flop: (17 BB, 2 players) K<font color='red'>♥</font> 5<font color='black'>♣</font> 6<font color='red'>♦</font>
SB bets 6 BB, Hero calls 6 BB

Turn: (29 BB, 2 players) 7<font color='black'>♣</font>
SB bets 14.5 BB, Hero calls 14.5 BB

River: (58 BB, 2 players) K<font color='black'>♠</font>
SB checks, Hero bets 34.8 BB, SB calls 34.8 BB

Hero shows 9<font color='black'>♠</font> 8<font color='black'>♠</font> (Straight, Nine High)
(Pre 33%, Flop 16%, Turn 77%)
SB shows K<font color='black'>♣</font> 8<font color='black'>♣</font> (Three of a Kind, Kings)
(Pre 67%, Flop 84%, Turn 23%)
Hero wins 121.6 BB

So you can see either I am being exploited or the villain is just crazy I mean K8s?? I honestly didn't have much of a plan in this hand and just wanted to "play some poker" as they say. But I think I would really like to have something more comfortable. Frustration has lead to my demise in 50NL previously and I really don't want an epic meltdown again.

Now I am following a GTO chart given by a user sometime ago on when you should just commit yourself facing 3 bets. However that only has so many hands. I feel some players are certainly 3 betting me more than their actual stat but there is no way to know that in PT4 which sucks.

Now most of the times when I do 4 bet I get a fold from a reg but that's because I only 4 bet actual hands. I don't think I really want to regularly get into 4 bet bluffs as that would have brutal variance.

I was thinking perhaps I should stop 4 betting entirely so it becomes fairly difficult to play me post flop in a 3 bet pot? I would of course still 4 bet if fish are left to act but in other spots I think this could be a good strategy to protect my weak calls from getting blown away by aggression on later streets. Rarely have I seen someone trying to get cute in 4 bet pots or at least not against me.

So ultimately what plan there is to deal with the sort of play in the above hand?
 
Thinker_145

Thinker_145

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Total posts
848
Awards
1
Chips
1
I don't get it @Thinker, are you saying you advanced to NL50 before you had to learn the basics of 4bet bluffing?
That's actually correct. I have been doing very well in 20NL without 4 bet bluffing much at all.
 
marieemce

marieemce

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 29, 2016
Total posts
163
Chips
0
4-bet fits very good in here. He probably would pay you. Today on the final table I found a villan goes all in with J4o and he was the cheapleader, I pay it with Q10s and he loose all his cheaps to me, sometimes 4-bets and goes all in with good cards in hand made them give up, or he pay and your probability win.
 
Thinker_145

Thinker_145

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Total posts
848
Awards
1
Chips
1
yeah but the more strategy you have in hand is always +ev
Not necessarily. There are some really terrible players at 20NL so if you have such a player left to act then some sort of fancy play can be -EV.
 
Top