I have identified my biggest leak in cash games.

I hero call big river bets far too often!

Or another way to look at it, I cannot make the big fold often enough.


Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions?

This isn't necessarily a scientific approach but I learned at low stakes cash games live, a big river bet ALMOST ALWAYS means the person has a good holding. To the point that it might be profitable to trust that and be willing to lose sometimes. Having one hero call out of ten still results in nine bad, expensive calls

A bit of information missing from you. Would you mind sharing your preflop ranges? Plenty of times you can avoid situations, where you have to make a tough river decision, by simply fixing your preflop game.

Ian the Fish said:

A bit of information missing from you. Would you mind sharing your preflop ranges? Plenty of times you can avoid situations, where you have to make a tough river decision, by simply fixing your preflop game.

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I cannot give you a range pre-flop from all positions, however - I would say that my style of play in live games is to establish a really tight table image, and then use that image to bluff in the right spots. From time to time I will switch over to LAG, but for the most part, I'm a TAG.

So naturally my first thought is, "no way that this guy just hit his hand, he must be bluffing me" Often as I am making the call I am thinking to myself that the villain is about to turn over XX and beat me.. and sure enough, there it is.

After going back and reviewing hands I have noticed that I do this a lot!

It's my biggest leak by far.

It leads to a situation where in cash games I either win a little, or lose a lot.

Thanks!

Well, I have to say that if you don't have clear preflop ranges from all positions versus various types of players, then here is the answer. By not knowing your ranges well enough, it is difficult to put other players on their ranges, thus - the incorrect river decisions.

Making a big fold on the river is a crucial aspect of the game. "In for a penny, in for a pound" does not work in poker.

You seem to have very good control of your own play . You are quite aware of how you appear to others . Now you need to put the same effort into seeing what the opponents are trying appear like . Also it seems to be a trend to bet big on the river with a monster (making it look like a bluff ) instead of value betting , and I must agre with the stradegy . It seems to work often .

Ian the Fish said:

Well, I have to say that if you don't have clear preflop ranges from all positions versus various types of players, then here is the answer. By not knowing your ranges well enough, it is difficult to put other players on their ranges, thus - the incorrect river decisions.

Making a big fold on the river is a crucial aspect of the game. "In for a penny, in for a pound" does not work in poker.

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lol I know them of course, Just dont want to type all that crap in. I'm tight - maybe 10% from UTG up to about 30 - 35% on the button.

What is a "hero" call? What is a "big" fold. Seems so vague. You have identified a problem now just fix it.
I also have problems with players saying they play TAG or LAG or my "table" image is this or that. I honestly think most people simply either just don't care or they have a read on you. Most players I have come across only play the cards in front of them.

Smokewood said:

I cannot give you a range pre-flop from all positions, however - I would say that my style of play in live games is to establish a really tight table image, and then use that image to bluff in the right spots. From time to time I will switch over to LAG, but for the most part, I'm a TAG.

So naturally my first thought is, "no way that this guy just hit his hand, he must be bluffing me" Often as I am making the call I am thinking to myself that the villain is about to turn over XX and beat me.. and sure enough, there it is.

After going back and reviewing hands I have noticed that I do this a lot!

It's my biggest leak by far.

It leads to a situation where in cash games I either win a little, or lose a lot.

Thanks!

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So you are aware of your "table image", but what of that of the "villain" in these situations?
What is their table image? Why is it so "natural" to think the given individual is bluffing?
Are they very LAG? Do they appear to be buying pot after pot? Or are they folding quite a bit, playing like a rock, and you followed them to the river for a given hand? If the latter, than your real leak is in not properly assessing your opponent's range and the likelihood they are indeed holding what you think they may be.

PKRNRS said:

What is a "hero" call? What is a "big" fold. Seems so vague. You have identified a problem now just fix it.
I also have problems with players saying they play TAG or LAG or my "table" image is this or that. I honestly think most people simply either just don't care or they have a read on you. Most players I have come across only play the cards in front of them.

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I work hard on my table image and it's a term used more by live players than online. I purposefully play in such a way that people at my table think i'm really tight. It takes time and effort but once they see me like that, I can then pick spots and bluff my ass off, and it works really well.


A hero call is when you are sitting on a flush and call a bet from someone who just bet big and are representing a monster. If you know they are bluffing and call and win, you're a hero! If they really have it, you should make a BIG fold by laying down that flush.


Sorry if you don't like the terms LAG and TAG but they do mean something.

PokerPete said:

So you are aware of your "table image", but what of that of the "villain" in these situations?
What is their table image? Why is it so "natural" to think the given individual is bluffing?
Are they very LAG? Do they appear to be buying pot after pot? Or are they folding quite a bit, playing like a rock, and you followed them to the river for a given hand? If the latter, than your real leak is in not properly assessing your opponent's range and the likelihood they are indeed holding what you think they may be.

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Interested assessment, I'll give it some thought. You may be right.

Smokewood said:

I hero call big river bets far too often!

Or another way to look at it, I cannot make the big fold often enough.


Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions?

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I used to do this so much! It was definitely a big leak in my game. Hero calling is ok at some points, but it’ll often lose you money. Recently called a bad hero due to being tilted, and lost a stack. Instantly realised how bad of a call it was...

Well done in finding leaks in your game.

Welcome to the game, you are a station. I was a station too and probably am still stationing a bit in some spots. Just think of ranges. Villains indeed hit it. If they didnt have the draw or showdown value at least they wouldnt be playing the hand, would they?

Not saying that they always hit it. But you should call more often when there are busted draws which makes villain bluff. If all the draws hit you are more likely to be beaten...

Limited_Al said:

Hero calling is ok at some points, but it’ll often lose you money.

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...true. Painful nonetheless
I've paid off rivered sets vs top two pair enough times to add it to my CC signature

And I did not skzal that in games with microlights, if the opponent goes all in or raises the bank, then he has a good hand ....

The probability of a good hand is 60 percent.

you need to look at his statistics.

Well making big folds is really not that common that it really would affect too much to win rate, given you also win 50%+ of non made big folds (ie calls). It's really hard to lose money with a monster. That is quite logical if you think about it any closer.

So maybe: "My biggest leak is not to be able to fold made hand"?

Or you forgot to compare this exact same spot when you make a call and win.

Edit, right well this was already discussed but b/c I already typed this in...

A simple way to work basic ranges is once you have your utg range add 5% for mp and 5% again for c/o then double it for btn and take 25% off for sb. So from 10% utg it would be 15% mp ,20% c/o ,40% btn and 30% sb. Give or take a percent or two.So many free range charts and Apps out there now though that preflop ranges are basically ready built for people.

That's my leak too. I often called just out of curiosity. Now I only hero call the river when I got a read and my gut tells me to hero call. If you're the type who hero calls like me sometimes, you really gotta watch your opponents. I never play on more than 4 tables.

I'd avoid hero calls as multipled by 100x they lose you money than win you money in long run (which is the only run that counts). I'd especially avoid hero calls in MTT unless you are like 70%+ invested in a pot already.

people tend to call more than they should and tend to fold less than they should curiosity human nature

Guys, reading all your posts really made me learn a thing or two, so thanks You get better by playing against a better oponent

Fold or No Fold?

Curiosity was and at times is my worst nightmare! To tune out the curiosity, I started hand logs of my bets and make and at times I mean force myself to go by my hand history. It helps. Good conversation. Good luck with your game!

Smokewood said:

I hero call big river bets far too often!

Or another way to look at it, I cannot make the big fold often enough.


Thoughts? Ideas? Suggestions?

Click to expand...

I used to do it a lot. I start fold more with experience, needed some time playing to learn.

try to read other players a bit more often. If your know how your opponents play you can often know if your hero call is worth the effort and investment.

I myself find it hard to fold a high pair even when I believe I am beat. it costs me plenty to learn to fold that pair of eights after the flop.but learn I have at times